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Thank you so much for your post, unspun! I do look forward to your explication and am glad to see that at least some of our disagreement is in word usage.

Betty, certainly there can be no obedience without willfulness just like there can be no good without evil. Hate exists so that we can know love. Fear exists so that we can know courage. Evil exists so that we can know good. Willfulness exists so that we can obey. But none of this means that hate, fear, evil, willfulness are therefore to be treasured and should be continued in the presence of God.

I must say I just don't agree with this and it does have to me, the appearance of dualism, sweet A-G. God is preternatural, apriori and does not need anti-God in order to be fully experienced as God. The same, for his qualities. The same for how he may be perceived, by one created to be in communion with him.

This is another one of those things where we will probably end up in disagreement due to our understanding of origins. Mine is somewhat unique but is based on the Word, Jewish tradition and science. I described it at length in the post linked above at 213, but that which bears on the “dualism” issue is as follows.

One of the words used to describe God at creation is Ayn Sof which roughly translated from Hebrew means infinite and nothing. The scientific term for this state at the beginning, is singularity - in which there are no physical laws, no space, no time, no particles, no geometry, no energy, nothing – and yet everything. It has a parallel in math as well, the number zero – nothing can be divided by it, anything multiplied by it is it, it is in between all positive and negative numbers. Infinite and not at the same time.

I pondered on this state at length and deduced that God must have wanted to reveal Himself and thus there was a beginning. Notably, the inflationary theory underlines the first three words of the Bible (“in the beginning”) – until then the mindset was a steady state universe.

Then I pondered how God would go about revealing Himself. I deduced He would create beings who could think to whom He would reveal Himself and would commune. I further deduced how He would go about communicating Himself to these beings, i.e. that He is good and truth and so forth.

These attributes would have no meaning in any language unless they were set in contrast to what they are not. (How would you know if you are happy if you have never been sad?) Thus, I pondered that He would create good and evil, love and hate, et al so that a language could be formed, the Word.

I then pondered He would communicate His will to the thinking beings so they would know Him. I also pondered that, for the words to have meaning, He would give them numerous manifestations of all these contrasts – space/time, geometry, particles, energy, matter, creatures.

One of the ideas of the Jewish Kabbalah that rings true to my spirit is that the Scriptures are another name for God, i.e. it reveals who He is. So I see all of creation – spiritual and material – and the Word as God revealing Himself.

Enter Satan, beautiful and thinking being as he is, decided he ought to exalted. He became “aware” of his beauty and self and thus was at odds with God’s will for him.

Likewise, Adam and Eve became “aware” of themselves and sought to be more by gaining the knowledge of good and evil. And likewise, they were at odds with God’s will for them.

Unspun, when it is all said and done I see us restored to what was intended at the beginning, we will be the thinking beings to whom God reveals Himself and with whom He communes. His will is what matters over all else. The Lord’s Prayer reveals as much, the meaning of life and the purpose of our existence:

Our Father which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

IMHO, every believer ought to meditate deeply, every day, on the Lord’s Prayer – phrase by phrase and word by word. Our place is sandwiched between God’s purpose and His dominion.

A-G, I don't have your powers of intellect, so let me borrow yours, please.

One of the words used to describe God at creation is Ayn Sof which roughly translated from Hebrew means infinite and nothing. The scientific term for this state at the beginning, is singularity - in which there are no physical laws, no space, no time, no particles, no geometry, no energy, nothing ? and yet everything. It has a parallel in math as well, the number zero ? nothing can be divided by it, anything multiplied by it is it, it is in between all positive and negative numbers. Infinite and not at the same time.

A-G, this term, Ayn Sof, it's from the Kabbalah, right? Or does this term describe God somewhere in the inspired scriptures?

Quite evident that Adam and Eve were warned not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. But did they know when God was visiting them compared to when He wasn't? When He was, do you suppose they drew perceptions of God's presence vs. when He was not so present? And why did God warn them not to eat of this fruit? And from the rest of the Scriptures, do you believe God was deeply saddened, when they did, or that He had the feelings that one has when he sees his plan coming together?

One of the ideas of the Jewish Kabbalah that rings true to my spirit is that the Scriptures are another name for God, i.e. it reveals who He is. So I see all of creation ? spiritual and material ? and the Word as God revealing Himself.

Do you believe there is a difference between messenger and message? Where the messenger is the message and the author too (in Christ) is this unique in nature, or is it of the same nature of any other message of the Author?

Enter Satan, beautiful and thinking being as he is, decided he ought to exalted. He became ?aware? of his beauty and self and thus was at odds with God?s will for him. Likewise, Adam and Eve became ?aware? of themselves and sought to be more by gaining the knowledge of good and evil. And likewise, they were at odds with God?s will for them.

Do you think that the angels were aware of themselves before Lucifer hit the skids? Do you think that Adam and Eve were aware of themselves, before they were tempted? Think of God looking away, then looking squarely into their eyes. Think of God speaking to others (in language) and then looking into their eyes and speaking to them.

If our purpose is sandwiched between God's purposes and His dominion (and His expressed purposes are for us to obey Him by taking dominion of the lower order in His name) is He trusting us for acting in ways that He prefers to enjoy by watching, rather than enacting our behavior Himself? (What did He tell Adam and Eve, before the fall about such things?)

There are times when we may be so engaged with God that we may act according to the movements of His very soul. Do you also suppose that the Father wants his sons to act by observing Him at work in our surroundings and taking on such jobs as His learned son apprentices? Do you suppose that the Bridegroom would want to have a bride that dresses herself in the way she may wisely perceive to be most beautiful for Him (since she has empathy with him) or does the groom dress the bride?