[Alamo-Girl]

Please post your views or additional research on the subject. Thanks!

[Alamo-Girl]

unspun, here's the thread as promised. Please ping anyone you'd care to the discussion.

Diamond, I know you have information on the subject you might wish to post here for Freepers and Lurkers.

[bluetoad]

So is this a Liberal or a Conservitive Issue or did the major political parties take this up( or considering to) as party of there party platforms?

[aynrandfreak]

I think that the main motivation that keeps people believing in religion is fear of death. Implicit to me in Objectivism is the end goal of using technology (the rate of which is sped up by capitalism) to cure the diseases of aging.

[eastsider]

If the discussion digresses into the Aristotelian concept of the soul, as I suspect it might, please feel free to flag my attention (preferably by FReepmail). Tx.

[JmyBryan]

Bump for later

[PatrickHenry]

One difficult question which evolutionists will have to face is the question of spirituality. How will they explain the vital force of the spirit, the psyche, free will, and the soul? What adaptation could cause one's spirit to evolve? At what evolutionary stage does a soul mingle with flesh and blood? How is "mind over matter" achieved?

I stumble at the beginning. The issues you raise are not (in my ever-humble opinion) scientific issues at all. I doubt that science can ever deal with these matters.

[Kudsman]

Wow. Where to start. First, Zon and Romulus, I have conversed with you in the past, and was interested in what you said. Zon, I heard, understand and live by alot of what you say. I ping you here not to cause confrontation regarding mystic beliefs, but to futher comprehend if you choose to offer any responses. Romulus, you and I have had brief but I believe honest communications in the past. You once asked if I had any theology training because of the way I used certain words. I'm sorry I never answered that until now, but no I haven't. I only have an interest in futher developing / exploring my own spirituality.

With that out of the way I would like to make a comment and pose a question. I am fully aware of my humanity, free will, and consequential actions relating to the world I live on. However much I try to rationalize and deny my spirituality I just cannot do it. For me personally it comes down to all the reflection, emotions and thoughts at war within me as I prepare for confession and penance. The feelings overwhelm to the point of helplessness unless action is taken by myself. At that moment of breathing and giving voice to all that is troubling my soul it becomes an exhilarating avalanche of emotions that I do not want to end. Eventually it does end and when I'm given the grace, the feeling of peace is the greatest PHYSICAL experience I ever get. Afterwards when penance is completed I find that memories of my sins fade to the point of non-existance. Some of you who read this are going to call me nuts and I understand your fears, so please do so call me nuts on this forum and if I can't (or won't) try to answer your questions I'm sure others will. Thank you Alamo-girl for this post. I hope it can be discussed in a frank, honest and respectful manner.

My question is to you Zon. No matter what anyone refers to it as, do you believe it is possible to totally deny all thoughts of a oneness with a higher power other than ourselves. Once again I am asking not to judge anyone other than myself. If you would prefer, please feel free to FReepmail me with an answer.

[kkindt]

Have you read the book Body & Soul: Human Nature & the Crisis of Ethics by Moreland and Rae?

here we read of a view that say:
there is no internal essence or nature that guies the process of development rather properties are added and lost in the process of growht and aging." This is called the "property-thing" view of human nature - that we aren't human if we lack certain functional properties.

The other view is the substance-dualism view which indicates there is an essence to a human person that exists at the moment of conception and that this essence causes the properties of human persons to develop if not stopped or handicapped - but that it is this essence - this soul - that has a peculiar non-physical substance that is manifesting its nature in the body that grows.

[r9etb]

A typical jaw-dropping A-G compilation. Thanks!

[Aric2000]

These questions and others have forced evolutionists to deceive themselves, contending that souls do not exist. However, since the declaration that souls don't exist (or basically that anything non- observable is non-existent) is an illogical claim (and at the very least an unsubstantiated one) some scientists who believe in the theory of evolution have taken recourse in various outlandish, even humorous, assertions

I disagree with this entire notion that evolutionists disregard the fact that there is a soul, I will admit that some do, but not all, not by a long shot.

It is not scientifically verifiable or falsifiable, so therefore the discussion of the existence of the soul has no place within the halls of science.

It is a philisophical question, and to say that it has a place in the hard sciences, I believe, is a dead letter.

Evolution SHOULD NOT discuss the soul, it should discuss what it discusses, the continuing and past evolution of life and how it came to be the way it is.

Now, if you wish to discuss it on other levels, hunky doory, but do not discuss it in terms of hard science, because it does not belong there.

But it is fun to discuss, and as PH says, we love you A-Girl.

[Doctor Stochastic]

Das Vermissen ist die Unterscheidung zwischen Geist und Seele.

For another point of view: link.

[betty boop]

Wonderful post, A-G!!! Looks like I've got my work cut out for me here.... Thank you so much for the links.

[unspun]

Catching up, running twice as fast as I can... This response, chiefly to a first pass at the selected texts only.

Not surprisingly, I tend to find much of the philosophy (psychology, if you will) of the Kabala to be... displeasing to the mind, seeminly arbitrary, except where it faithfully examines the Scirptures' usage of words and concepts; also where it just doesn't seem to be helpful, functionally.  But then again, I haven't slogged through the links and their explications.  Reading some of this, I can see why the advancement of science has caused many to be skeptical at anything spiritual, since so much of the (extra-Biblical) assertions have the ring of quaint, old mumbo jumbo to modern ears.  (BTW, can I say "modern" anymore?  If not, then what is the term du jour for things du jour?  Current?  "...current ears?")  So, one finds oneself going through these writings like the "Jesus Seminar" professors have gone through the Gospels, separating what one finds believable from the rest, based upon my particular 21st Century Yankee thought.  The difference of course is that those folks discarded the reality of the Scriptures to boot.

betty boop, I did take just a really quick look at your fist post so far and I was expecting that you might find that ancient Jewish philosophy has fundamental elements in common with that of ancient Greece.  I've had a strong suspicion that those folk borrowed significantly from the wisdom collected by the ol' 12 Tribes, hungry explorers for wisdom that they were.  (It's also entertaining to see how overall, God brings the elements of cultures along as the setting for his historical revelations with mankind -- and it seems he's not through, yet with that, BTW!)  Reading some of this Kabala schtick, one can also see where some of its superstitious but tidy explanations were borrowed by those in the church, early on (some of it, despite warnings by Jesus and his apostles).

At first pass, Rabbi Noson Weisz seems to be making a-lot of apparenlty and suspiciously tidy designations, but begging for trouble in the direction of gnostic dualism.  There are elements here which seem to be controverted by New Testament Scriptures.  I despise people's drawing lines, where there are no actual demarcations (and think how much God does!).

I'm not going to go into specifics, since I've only had a "first pass" at this.  It would be interesting to hear more about the sources and how these sources learned from their sources and so on...  I'll hope to read more of the posts and even look further into this.

For the moment, four main, personal responses:

1. Thank God we don't really have to know such details
2. Scriptural context, spiritual insight of the Holy Spirit, "common sense," and the practical utility of it all, should be a good tests of veracity.  (But look at even those four "factors" and how they intermingle!)
3. There is much in modern (current? - here again, I'm not sure how people are "allowed" to use the word "modern" anymore ;-) psychology that I tend to trust more than much of this, especially the "quaint" and "tidy" labels and explanations.
4. Thank God for what we do have, authoritatively from Him, in which to trust.

But... don't get me wrong; there are some insights here! Grounds and growth if you will, for practicing the skills involved in the vocational curse of Adam, i.e., cultivation of what is fruitful and weeding out what isn't.  

And now, I trust I will go back to sleep.  ;-)

[William Terrell]

It would seem to me that the rabbis have made out of something extremely simple something extremely complex, which would mean that explanation thereof has a high bullbutter content.

[man of Yosemite]

God created the body of Adam, but Adam was not alive until God breathed upon him, creating a living soul. That means that man is more than just a physical body, being animated by something greater than the dust he was created from, proceeding from God himself. Jesus said he "came down from Heaven," referring to his Spiritual existence before he had a human form. John the Baptist "leapt in the womb for joy" upon hearing the voice of Mary, the mother of the Lord. His forming body already filled with the Holy Spirit and experiencing the joy of the Lord.
Jesus breathed on his disciples and said, "receive the Holy Ghost." They were born of the spirit at that moment, having received the Holy Spirit at the command of Christ. Some days after this, Peter understands an obscure verse of scripture refering to the appointment of another apostle to replace Judas Iscariot. This demonstrated the quickened spiritual life he received when Jesus breathed upon him, enabling him to understand the spiritual Word of God.
Jesus said we must be "born of the Spirit." He described this life as being like the wind, unseen until striking a physical form. Those who have experienced this new life from Christ can attest to the spiritual transformation which takes place afterward. We are created souls meant to be filled with the life of God, the very Spirit of God. It is for this reason that we exist at all.

[CyberAnt]

Afterlife by Ilil Arbel, Ph.D.:

"A human being on earth unites two parts -- a body and a soul"

The Bible clearly states, "and GOD said, let us make man in our image". Since GOD is a 3-part being, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, then man must be a 3-part being.

Man is a spirit, man has a soul (the mind, will and emotions), and man lives in a body. The term "man" is generic for human. Man's spirit will live forever.

The real question should be - where is your spirit going to spend eternity ...??