Extension of Objectivism discussion regarding the soul

Various | Various | Various

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing your views on all of this!

Do you have views to share on what a person's resurrected body is like v. the mortal body?

[William Terrell]

When one becomes aware of the reality of his own soul, and the darkness in which he resides, the awareness of his need for God and the Christ Who is His Son will lead, without exception, to rebirth, and the world and everything in it will be different and clear. Rebirth comes from that realization alone because it motivates the seeking, and those that seek, find, period.

You can witness in the Mall everyday for the rest of your life and the only ones you meet that will accept the Son will be those already on the path for it, regardless of your presence there and the words you say. The ones to whom you will minister will seek you out, or God will put them in your path.

[CyberAnt]

Well ... according to the Bible, Jesus will wipe away our tears when we get to heaven. That would support the idea that the "soul" which contains the mind, the will, and the emotions, goes with the spirit to heaven.

Other scriptures say we will eat (picking fruit off a tree), drink, worship, and laugh. Certainly all those things need a mind, a will and emotions.

However, the spirit is separate from the soul - the reason is Paul told us - "renew your mind" ... and Paul was talking to a group of people who were already born again - which would mean they already had a new spirit, indicating the spirit and the soul were regenerated separately.

The Holy Spirit to me is a person. I believe HE also has a mind, will and emotions. HE doesn't need a body because HE lives in the spiritual world.

[kkindt]

The rebirth is the gift of that realization that you are a depraved sinner in need of the sacrifice Jesus Christ has made for you. Faith in Him is a gift of God. So I do agree with you that those whom God has determined will not be lost to Him will be saved and will hear the gospel. It is the teaching of Ephesians 2:8-10 and in Romans and in the words of Jesus Christ in John 6.

We don't just 'reside in darkness' - apart from the new birth we are dead to God. Rebirth doesn't come from the realization - rebirth produces that realization, don't you think? Where are the words of Scripture that say that rebirth produces the realization? I think there are many passages that teach rebirth produces that realization but can't think of any that teach that the realization produces the new birth?

[kkindt]

I don't have my own views to share about resurrected boy vs. mortal body but can share with you the views of Scripture:
"Do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit" - hence our current mortal body is to be regarded as the very dwelling place of God and treated with the utmost respect and dignity as the "place" where God Himself not only dwells on earth in us but also the "place" through which others come to meet our Lord. When we who believe in Jesus Christ eat too much and make our bodies fat or we smoke or we put drugs or too much drink in our bodies we dishonor the dwelling place of God Himself. Our mortal bodies are wonderful works of God - "behold how fearful and wonderful are all thy works" - we were formed in respect to our bodies by God in that secret place - Psalm 139.

Now our bodies are corrupted by the sin of our first parents and then by our own sin - so they will die since these bodies were not kept 100% pure by our pure thoughts and pure pure deeds - Adam and we have corrupted them and our souls will be wrenched apart from them until they are totally destroyed or transformed (those who remain will have this mortal body transformed in a twinkling of an eye).

The resurrected body is the SAME body as the mortal body except it is glorifed - i.e. made perfect for our perfected souls. That resurrected body will be like Christ's resurrected body in the sense that it is 100% pure and undefiled and will remain so forever.

Those who trouble over the scientific fact that our bodies when they are buried or burned or decayed have their molecular structure undone and then our atoms become absorbed into other things in the creation forget that God remembers exactly how He made our DNA and what we ought to be like in respect to our bodies. So when the resurrection takes place each and every atom that was us regardless of where it has gone or what has become of it - has a unique identity in God's mind that has to do with each person and it is not impossible for Him to raise up our bodies in respect to the atoms into which they have been dissolved - even if one of our atoms has become some how the part of another person's body through that person eating a plant that has absorbed a part of us - it is the historical continuity of each person in respect to body and soul that is testified to in the Scriptures because God keeps track of each and every part of us 'the hairs of our heads are numbered'. Don't ask me or anyone HOW God can do this - does He clone atoms so that an atom what once made up my body then is recycled to make up someone else's body is used to resurrect both our bodies? I don't think we need to know or think about such things - God is all powerful and all wise and knows how to cause this resurrection He has promised will happen.

Our resurrected bodies will be perfect matches for our perfected souls.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for your analysis! I'm pinging a few others who might be interested in this discussion.

You might find it interesting that the Kabbalists think our DNA is our “name” in a similar sense that they say the Scriptures are another “name” for God. Perhaps the language of the DNA (or such) will be used to rewrite our resurrection bodies with better stuff than the atoms we are made of now? As you said, nothing is beyond God’s ability.

It appears to me that the bodies which we are intended to have – and will have in the resurrection – are quite different from the ones we currently possess. After the resurrection, Jesus appeared in the midst of closed rooms, sometimes He concealed His identity, yet He ate and offered His body for physical examination by doubting Thomas. There was physical substance – or not – as He wished.

I conclude that our resurrection bodies will not be constrained to what we now call the physical laws - i.e. the limitations of the physical or material realm. Rather, we will be able to enter and leave as we wish, like the angels who appeared to Abraham, Lot, Daniel, Mary, etc.

Also, when Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus, the disciples knew who they were. Abraham recognized the Lord when He appeared to him. And yet, Jesus sometimes concealed Himself and we are warned that some of the strangers we meet may actually be angels.

Seems to me that our resurrection bodies will be incorruptible, immortal, angelic. Instinctively, I believe those bodies will be whole and we will appear to others in eternity as they knew us, or in the alternative they will know us – even if they had never meet us in mortal life at that age, in wholeness, etc.

Here are some Scriptures for Lurkers who may be interested in the subject:

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. – Matthew 22:29-32

Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. – Hebrews 13:2

And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, Genesis 18:1-2

And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing [them] rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night. – Genesis 19:1-2

And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. – Mark 9:4

Now when [Jesus] was risen early the first [day] of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. – Mark 16:9

After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. – Mark 16:12

And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. – Matthew 28:9

And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: - Luke 24:4

And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem [about] threescore furlongs. And they talked together of all these things which had happened. And it came to pass, that, while they communed [together] and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. And he said unto them, What manner of communications [are] these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? - Luke 24:13-17

And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed [it], and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. – Luke 24:30-31

And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. - Luke 24:36

But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, [and looked] into the sepulchre, And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. – John 20:11-12

And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. – John 20:14

Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you. – John 20:19

And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you. – John 20:26

After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he [himself]. – John 21:1

Jesus saith unto them, Come [and] dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord. Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise. - John 21:12-13

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory? I Cor 15:52-55

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. – Rev 21:4

[kkindt]

After the resurrection, Jesus appeared in the midst of closed rooms, sometimes He concealed His identity, yet He ate and offered His body for physical examination by doubting Thomas. There was physical substance – or not – as He wished.
My response: I don't think his body ever lacked the property of physical substance. It is just that He manifested properties of that body that He had the power to manifest - i.e. He could make the body's atoms move in ways that we do not understand so that the fallen corrupted eyes we have could not see or He could cause His body to move through or between other atomic masses. We just don't have enough information to say that what His risen body was like compared to His body before His death. But remember this - His body was sinless from the moment of conception. Unlike our sin corrupted bodies His was perfect from the very beginning. Remember how, before His resurrection, He walked on water and gave the power to Peter to do the same until Peter's faith failed him. So even our sin ruined bodies may by His power be enabled to do things they can't do by any inherit properties.

Our Lord is the Master of atoms and molecules, electrons and protons and other particles so small we haven't seen them yet - He is the controller of every substance. So our resurrected bodies will manifest the powers He gives to them but the very nature of our resurrected bodies will be physical - they will always be physical substance - but glorified i.e. much better than they were in their fallen state.

The fact that our Lord ate fish in His risen body indicates to us He had physical substance even in this fallen world but He had that perfect physical body we will one day have and obviously if our bodies will be like His glorified body our fallen bodies will be raised into incorruptible and much more powerful bodies. We lost the beauty and strength of our bodies when Adam sinned. Adam had a perfect body. There is no telling whether his uncorrupted body was capable of doing what our glorified bodies will be enabled to do - it might just be a wonderful restoration to bodies like Adam's uncorrupted body. We do know that in the resurrection there will be no marriage and it might be deduced this means no sexual reproduction for the command to fill the earth I am assuming will have been completed before His second coming when the Heavens and earth are made new.

You stated:
I conclude that our resurrection bodies will not be constrained to what we now call the physical laws - i.e. the limitations of the physical or material realm. Rather, we will be able to enter and leave as we wish, like the angels who appeared to Abraham, Lot, Daniel, Mary, etc.
My answer: "if you have faith as a mustard seed you will say to this mountain.." I think the perfect faith we have when our resurrected bodies and souls are reunited will enable us to do in those bodies whatever God wills us to do and we will do it. If He wishes us to manifest our bodies a billion miles from here in an instant then our bodies will be given that capability.

You wrote:
Also, when Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus, the disciples knew who they were. Abraham recognized the Lord when He appeared to him. And yet, Jesus sometimes concealed Himself and we are warned that some of the strangers we meet may actually be angels.
My answer: They "KNEW" who they were not because of what they looked like but because this knowledge was given to their minds by the Holy Spirit. What we 'see' is dependent upon the physical substance but also on the inner light the Holy Spirit generates for us. It is possible the way a resurrected body can work is that it can reflect light to the eye of the observer in various ways so that the physical substance of the risen body is different not in its actual 'appearance' but in its ability to reflect light differently to the eye of the beholder. We are not told, are we?

The DNA signature idea regarding our name is interesting but speculative because what of DNA twins? The unique name we have in the Mind of our Magnicient all knowing and wise God is one He has invented and whether it is manifested in the DNA or the fingerprints or in the way we walk (I just read that the FBI can tell who you are by how you walk!) He makes each of His children unique for His purposes. We ought not take pride in our uniqueness but we ought to give Him glory and gratitude for such an incredible ability to design each creature to be special to Him.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing your views on all of this! It has been a very interesting discussion.

[logos]

Hi, all. I wanted to thank you for your prayers concerning my recent surgery. It wasn't all that big a deal, but since it was on my left elbow it did slow down my posting for awhile. Just when I thought I could "get back into it," I somehow managed to rip out one of the staples holding the incision together, so got delayed again. [sigh]

And now, I have a meeting to attend. I don't know that I have a great deal to add to this find discussion about souls (except that I have one, of course), but I'll try to return later to see if I can come up with that "benediction" someone mentioned. :)

Again, thanks for all your prayers and kind wishes. Shalom.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for dropping by and giving us an update on your recovery! Praise God for the good report!

I look forward to all of your posts, your wisdom and blessing. Hugs!

[unspun]

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It is well, in your soul.

[Alamo-Girl]

Indeed, it is well with my soul! Hugs!!!

[Kudsman]

Good evening AG,

Before I head out with the tykes to visit some close folks, I have something I wanted to pose to you. Today, while doing a little thinking regarding the Holy Day, I wondered if some of the foundation of the Blessed Trinity concept could be based on Nefesh, Neshama and Rhuarc? I am sorry for bringing this thread back but my meditations reminded me of it. TCN and a nice to see you again .

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for sharing your thoughts on this!

I remember reading an article long ago that spoke of certain numbers being used throughout Scriptures in a consistent context. As I recall, the number seven always seemed to be associated with a completion, the number four with man, the number ten with a test and the number three with holiness. But I doubt any mortal actually planned on it working out that way.

[Kudsman]

But I doubt any mortal actually planned on it working out that way.

I share that doubt. More so, I think I'm actually thankful it is so.

[Alamo-Girl]

Same here! Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts!