Posted on 05/08/2003 9:44:29 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
??????????????????? And -- ?
On a previous post, when you were "taking us there" - to the holy place in the woods, I could feel your reverance. What joy and peace you must have!
And as you've referred to our natural world being of the stuff of God's Word, what a natural joy and peace it has, eh?
For some it could be a stroll on the beach, the quiet of garden or standing high on a mountain top.
Whatever it may be for each one, I pray that all will find a holy place.
I'm working on it, Alamo-Girl -- or rather, God is working on it in me. I too, like yourself and others here, have been "born again," my life has been completely turned around, by the grace of the Lord. Now I see Him everywhere, in His works. You know, somehow I feel it is such a privilege to be a part of His creation, to participate in the astonishing wonder and beauty of it all. I can understand the attitude of the great saint Francis of Assisi ("peace saint" and patron saint of animals and ecology); and I especially love his splendid prayer --
Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
Where there is injury, pardon;
Where there is doubt, faith;
Where there is despair, hope;
Where there is sadness, joy;
Where there is Darkness, Light.
O Divine Master, grant
That I may not so much seek to be consoled, as to console;
Not so much to be pardoned, as to pardon;
Not so much to be loved, as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive;
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
It is in dying that we are born again
To eternal Life.
Amen.
Indeed, betty boop, I recognize you as my sister in the Lord, that you are born again. It is no wonder that in the essential matters, we are of one Mind, i.e. the miracle of the indwelling of the Spirit. What is alive in us is difficult to explain to non-believers though we see it manifest even on this forum when we respond with a single voice to a call for help from one of our members.
And to apply what r9etb said in 255 - regardless of how we may each work out the details of our faith – the having of a faith in itself helps us to find understanding in the moral law which lies at the foundation of our liberty.
Betty and WT were talking about little kids....
At that time Jesus said, I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure. (Matt. 11:25-26)
As for me, I've found a lot of holiness simply by being around little kids -- it was a big factor in my conversion, and it's taught me a lot since.
And it doesn't hurt to hear your 2-yo tell you, "I saw an angel over your bed last night."
So to me it is all inviolable - both that which is good and that which is evil – because both are in the tapestry and serve to reveal God’s will. That is why I do not wish to bring an accusation against any being, great or small (Jude.)
By assurance especially from the book of Revelation, I trust God in the end of this phase of His revealing Himself - to separate the wheat from the chaff so that when we enter His new heaven and earth we will have understanding and no chaff will ever again be needed.
I confess that the purity of little children overwhelms me and leaves me wondering if they don’t possess spiritual understanding that is eventually diminished by the noise of mortal life. Sigh…
Indeed, if Adam and Even hadn’t learned the lesson of obedience the hard way, we would not be under the penalty of sin. And I certainly agree that the Father provided perfectly for the situation through Jesus Christ, who is the propitiation for our sin – throughout all of time and for eternity.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. – Revelation 13:8
A friend has asked, Can "knowledge about" also be primary experience? And I said that I didn’t think so, on the basis of certain definitions given by Jacques Barzun in his elaboration of Pascal. That is, the definitions of two modes of mind, the “geometric” (analytical) mind, and the “finesse” (intuitive) mind. On my understanding (which may be incorrect), the latter mode refers to what can be known on the basis of primary experience, which I associate (rightly or wrongly as the case may be) with experience of created nature, or the natural world. That is, intuition is mind in pre-analytical mode, simply, spontaneously taking in the sense of what it is that surrounds it in the “exterior” world without “constituting” what is received according to pre-existing premises or categories.
My friend has taken me to task for my use of definitions, thinking perhaps that they were merely “private” definitions. To which I can only reply that, in defining my terms (however clumsily) I was engaging in an attempt to communicate ideas to other people. Which is hardly a “private” endeavor.
Having said that, when we say that we have a “concept of perfection” – and I agree with you that we do – it seems to me we need to ask: Where does that idea of perfection come from? I don’t think it is derivable analytically, for there is nothing in the natural world that is perfect, so that we could have an example of perfection from that source. “Geometric mind” = “no help here.”
But what of the intuitive mind? If intuition is a pre-analytical way of integrating our experience of the natural world, then again it seems that intuition cannot tell us about perfection – based on the definition given. So, it seems to me that neither definition sheds any light whatsoever on where we get the idea of perfection, whose common symbolic expressions are mathematical objects. “Finesse mind” = “no help here.”
Maybe we should just shuck the definitions and ask some obvious questions: Where do we get our idea of perfection? Why does it form expectations in us? And why do we feel dissatisfied, disappointed when we do not see it in nature?
Perhaps -- perhaps -- we might say that it is a “seminal idea” that exists in the human unconscious. Rather than thinking of the unconscious mind as a “blank slate” when we enter the world, maybe we should think that the unconscious has content itself, from birth (maybe even pre-birth) on. And one of these contents is the idea of perfection.
Which seems reasonable – at least for a Christian believer like me. For man is made in the image of God – Who is Perfection. Though our human nature is fallen, we retain the idea of perfection for it is our Source. Our longing for perfection, and our disappointment and discouragement when we fail to see it in the world, or to achieve it ourselves, may simply be a longing for a lost Paradise, and a desire for reunion with our Source. Perhaps this longing is innate in human nature.
But why do we expect to find perfection in this world, such that we are disappointed when we do not find it? This, to me, is unreasonable: For God never said He made a “perfect” world. He did judge His creation, however, to be “good.” And thus our “lost paradise,” Eden, was not “perfect,” but “good.”
It has been wisely maintained (I forget now who said this – Augustine perhaps?): “The perfect is the enemy of the good.” If we “reject the world” because it’s imperfect (even though “good”), then it seems to me we have alienated ourselves from it (with all the anxiety that often occasions), and we have taken our first “baby step” onto the path that leads to gnosticism, and a dualistic universe.
JMHO FWIW. Thanks so much for raising this intriguing issue, man of Yosemite. (Thank you, cornelis.)
Only to a non-Christian. The problem occurred when the then self-appointed universal church (Roman Catholicism) decided to adopt Aristotlean views of the cosmos, which was just one single spoke of many in the wheel of corruption of the Church of God.
Indeed, in Genesis the word good is used to describe each complete step, and very good at the end of the sixth day. Elsewhere, that same Hebrew word is translated to mean “merry” and “better” in context.
Moreover, your analysis of the word perfect is supported by these Scriptures:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. – John 17:23
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. – I Cor 13:11
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