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WIPEOUT: NEXT ROUND IN THE PERMO-TRIASSIC MASS EXTINCTION DEBATE
From New Scientist | 26 April 2003 | Michael Benton

Posted on 05/05/2003 3:56:36 PM PDT by Mike Darancette

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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Can the Global Warming crowd use this to further their Hoax?

I don't think so, Global Warming must be caused by White Americans of European extraction to advance their agenda.

21 posted on 05/05/2003 8:50:30 PM PDT by Mike Darancette (Soddom has left the bunker.)
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To: GatorGirl; maryz; *Catholic_list; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; Askel5; livius; ...
Another schismatic protest? :)
22 posted on 05/05/2003 9:07:47 PM PDT by narses (Christe Eleison)
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To: Mike Darancette; blam
Velikovsky located a record fragment which commented upon a peoples from antiquity..who were before the present moon....in a period when there was no moon.

The communtiy which builds Ion drive engines for satillites..does the math for explorers like Voyager and Galilleo..that see out there..bring us the amazing images from Hubble are amazing,

Yet..there is this penchant to forward uniformity concepts that troubles me..that we should accept, that all the planets are with us since they were formed..that they all still circle as they did so very long ago.

Yet Venus has a near circular orbit..her atmosphere is rancid toxic..her surface flowing in discharges from within.

Her rotation is wrong for her local..coupled with the orbital path.

One guy who is ex JPL..comments that Venus looks like it is cooling off..either it got really hot from some force..or it got hot during transit thru our system..and is a recent capture as time goes.

I struggle at times to find good word definitions for concepts..but have read others comments that we should not have a moon so big as a sojourner with us...the math does not fit..comment from a man who does the astrophysical math thingy...[sorry,its a past read..do not have his name as ref today]

The wondrous things we discover..the wonders we are peeking into...yet the same crowd slams Velikovsky as a loon..and tells us everything is as it was so long ago.

NRRRRRRRRRR!....I don't buy it.

23 posted on 05/05/2003 9:10:29 PM PDT by Light Speed
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To: FreedomCalls
If we could get the liberals to shut up for once, that alone would reduce greenhouse CO2 emissions by half.

LOL.....

24 posted on 05/05/2003 9:30:53 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Virginia-American; Iota; What is the bottom line; whattajoke; ASA Vet; MHGinTN; Da_Shrimp; ...
Ping for the 2nd half of my list (Vade got the others).

[This ping list is for the evolution -- not creationism -- side of evolution threads, and sometimes for other science topics. To be added (or dropped), let me know via freepmail.]

25 posted on 05/06/2003 4:00:27 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.)
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To: narses
Love it!

But some got it Not Quite Right on the SUV's. (NKR as we would say.) One should know an SUV doesn't need a driver, even a dinosaur. SUV's like guns have a mind of their own and wreak their havoc alone, dragging the poor drivers along for the ride.

Libs may find SUV's responsible for the extinctions and greenhouse gasses as well in those days.
26 posted on 05/06/2003 4:05:25 AM PDT by 8mmMauser
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Thanks for the ping! Fascinating stuff. It seems like we are almost, but not quite, grasping something that might give us some answers.
27 posted on 05/06/2003 5:00:58 AM PDT by alwaysconservative ("All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke)
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To: blam
FWIW, speaking of natural catastrophes and their ability to cause extinctions, I have noticed that Hurricane Andrew caused major changes, that have persisted for 11 years now, in the species in my 1 acre back yard.

Before the storm, there were huge banana spiders and their webs all over the place, they were apparently wiped out almost completely by Andrew. However, their niche was filled by another spider, the crown of thorns spider, which even 11 years later continues to occupy the spaces vacated by the banana spiders. There were never centipedes here before Andrew, now the things are everywhere, in the house, on the house, a constant nuisance. Perhaps whatever preyed on them was destroyed.

Flora has changed too, all 40 or so longleaf pines were destroyed, they are not coming back, instead, live oak saplings are taking their place.

The posted article reminds me of Hancock and Sitchin's ideas.
28 posted on 05/06/2003 6:42:54 AM PDT by Sam Cree (Democrats are herd animals)
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To: Light Speed
I have read about indications that the moon may be hollow, but don't know how valid such ideas could be.
29 posted on 05/06/2003 6:44:00 AM PDT by Sam Cree (Democrats are herd animals)
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To: narses
Nope. Change in liturgy/SSPX protest.
30 posted on 05/06/2003 7:42:58 AM PDT by ninenot
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To: narses
You're bad! I clicked on this thread thinking it was another liturgy debate on the Religion Forum ;-)
31 posted on 05/06/2003 8:22:41 AM PDT by Polycarp (So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.)
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To: VadeRetro
PT placemarker. This theory was discussed at length on one of the cable channels about a week ago. It will probably be rerun many times.

Among the virtues of the theory is its explanation of the relative slowness of the extinction -- spanning 100,000 years or more -- too long a period to be explained by an asteroid impact. It also explains why the extinction involved the oceans as well as the land.

32 posted on 05/06/2003 8:33:33 AM PDT by js1138
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To: Grut
Just for the record, in a biology related thread, SUV is a genus of vehicles, where as Jeep is a species of the genus SUV.

That is Suveria jeepus

33 posted on 05/06/2003 8:51:57 AM PDT by bert (Don't Panic !)
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To: Sam Cree
I have read about indications that the moon may be hollow, but don't know how valid such ideas could be.

Calculations of the moon's mass based on known effects (tides, induced wobble in the earth's motion, etc.) would get different answers than they do if the "hollow" were non-trivial. Make the hollow too big and there's essentially nothing the rest of it can be made of to make up the difference, given that the earth and moon really orbit about a common center of gravity and the earth's mass has been well-known from Cavendish-type experiments since before 1800.

34 posted on 05/06/2003 9:20:42 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: Light Speed
NRRRRRRRRRR!....I don't buy it.

About the only thing Velikovsky got right is that something really big was going on in the Eastern Mediterranean at one time. (It was the volcanic eruption of Thera/Santorini.)

Jim Meritt's Velikovsky FAQ.

35 posted on 05/06/2003 9:24:09 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: Sam Cree; blam; Mike Darancette
Some interesting points to ponder in this article.

Mythology is fascinating for the themes forwarded.

Many theories as to what generated the end of the ice age..and saw water levels rise hundreds of feet by 9,500 BCE.

So the end of the Tertiary period ,something...some mechanism.

A comet?...the break up of the Tertiary moon?

somthing catastrophic haunts man from this time...he witnessed and survived it..passed the experience on.

We look back and try to piece together the stories of Atlantis..or other cultures swallowed up as per hints from Mayan Codex's...hints from ancient Egypt..the Ande's.

On my part..there is definitely a "Tertiary something"....man is still working thru the Global Amnesia from its occurance.

Fire, Flood, and Famine, (Chapt.4, 'Demonology and Disaster', By Hugh Soar (a brief summary) cont.

Recurrent theme in most mythologies is that of chaos. It starts as the lore of a tribe's mythical history, or forerunner of the religious epics of the land, as the case of Biblical Genesis; since we know chaos myths to follow a pattern, the Biblical creation myth would appear incomplete. The following chaos myth, perhaps one of the most perfectly preserved, is taken from Revelations 6-12. It has a reference I think, to the earlier catastrophe, the disintegration of the Tertiary Satellite, though it may be contrasted with the myth immediately following it, also taken from revelations (16-2) which apparently refers to a capture cataclysm. "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and lo there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair; and the moon as blood; and the stars of the heaven fell into the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondsman, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens, and in the rocks of the mountains. And said to the mountains and rocks. Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb. For the great day of his wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand."

"And the seventh angel poured out his Vail into the air.. and there were… thunders and lightning's; and there was a great earthquake, such as not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nation fell, and great Babylon (Atlantis?) came in remembrance before God… and every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent."

According to Jewish Lore there was, at the end of every age, a war between God and his adversaries. The enemy, significantly was conceived to be in the form of a dragon. Anti-Christ, this mysterious force, was considered to be influenced by Satan, though this influence we shall see to be, in reality the transposition of evil from an unknown force, only dimly conceived, to a known Prince of Evil. Anti-Christ the latent force of evil, is the Moon. Satan, the Ruler of the Kingdom of darkness whom St. Paul describes in fact as the God of his Age, (in contrast to an age to come after the day of judgement, (the Day of Jahweh)-the moonless age), is ominipresent, and since Satan is held, either directly or indirectly responsible for all evil, when the Moon commences its breakdown, or when its closer in relation to the earth enables its association with the cataclysm, the emphasis of evil will sharply turn from the abstract and by this time fully symbolized Satan to the material, dominant, satellite. The conception of ages, sharply defined, each ending in chaos, and each commencing under the potency of a God is not of course unique. The religion of the Aztecs, of which Tezcatlipoca was but one God/Age, and that of India, the Avataras of Vishnu, are important examples. The moonless age, the age when life will spring from the earth anew, is the time of happiness, until it too is presently dominated by another satellite. One thinks of the Norse Lif, and Lifthrasir entering hand in hand the world, after the terrors of Ragnarok. This played a great part in chaos myths with the dragon also looming.

Edward Langton feels a great connection between Assyria/Babylonian myth, and Satan, since, in the Jewish Apocryphal literature, (Revelations. 12.9) Satan is identified with the dragon that storms the heaven. According to Persian teachings, the serpent Azi-Dalakar is bound and fettered in the Mountain of Damavand. Arriman, the evil principle of Zoroastrian dualism and early monotheism released him after 9,000 years, but , after another thousand years he was slain, by Keresaspa. After the cleansing of the world, the serpent, it is said, will disappear. Here we seem to have an account of the fettering (by bonds of gravitational attraction) of a satellite, a common enough motif in many mythologies, (The fettering of Fenris for example). Evil follows Good, as we know from the study of many religions.

On Satan, it is a coincidence that he, and Azazel the 'chief of the watchers' and the leader of the fallen angels are both associated with the dragon, the destroyer of the world, and referred to as an arch-fiend. As Lord of the Material Universe, 'God of this Age', if he were to be associated with the newly captured moon, and regarded as responsible for the destruction consequent upon the capture cataclysm, then his relation to the conception of God, becomes clearer, The coming of Satan (or Anti-Christ) is the event which disrupts the normal course of life. He is the destroyer, and as has convincingly been shown, the appellation 'dragon' is perfectly consistent with the newly captured moon. We do see also the wolf becomes a part of this moon association with the dragon? From Webmaster-When the Moon in its phases goes to is furthermost points it is often called the Head of the Dragon moon and the Tail of the Dragon moon as if it were talking about some comet, and may explain the alchemical serpent biting its tail, or is Benzine Lunar based? The Head-Tail was based on a larger scale of the North Pole Serpent, and at times is mixed with this age or problem.

The knowledge of these myths came to Wales by way of Hu Gadarn and the Avanc to those Lake names presently. The most compelling myth is Ragnarok:

"After the Fimbul winter, the terrible trail of snow an all embracing ice, the Giantess Angur-boda fed the progeny of the fettered wolf, Fenris until, pursuing Sol and Mani (The Sun and Moon-Egyptian form), they overtook and devoured them. At the chaotic disaster the whole earth shook, and the stars fell from their places in the heavens. (Note the Revelations similarity in Bibles line). The author goes on with the myth, but the point is these Biblical Revelation's already happened and the land was re-peopled. Could St. John merely borrowed from other tales of something already written and spoken in terms of the past, is St. John saying history is repeating, or was he wishing for man a doom what had already happened before? The Celtic story of Henny-Penny is from this line of above works. The Polynesians of the Maori have a strange variation on these myths of the three destruction's of earth. The 'second upsetting of the land was followed by 'Hapopo' (decay) folding up the sun'. Puta, the spirit responsible for the first turning over of the land (agriculture or not?), has been equated with Buddha (more likely Ptah, Egyptian God), and it is thought that the evidence exists for a culture borrowings by the Polynesians from India (and Egypt). India has many accounts of earth being turned upside down. The deluge tradition from the Windward Islands follows the general pattern, but includes a reference to falling stones. "The groves of trees and the stones were carried away by the winds… There they watched, nights ten, the sea ebbed, and they too saw the little heads of the mountains…The land remained without produce…The wind was becoming feeble…the stones and the trees began to fall from the heavens…They heard with terror the loud voice of the falling stones.' A Fijian creation myth recorded, tells how Tangaloa, when the earth was yet uninhabited, sent his daughter Turi to the earth in the shape of a snipe to find place to create humans (sounds like Noah's doves, or ravens?). She eventually found a place where she could rest, and the myth tells of her repeated flights to Tangaloa as she reported that the dry surface was extending upon all sides. Tangoloa then sent down earth and a creeping plant to cover bare rock. The plat grew, withered, decomposed, and the worms which appeared, became human beings." Popul Vuh provides the last example of chaos/flood myth. The first men that were made were made of mud, but they were unsatisfactory to the forefathers so they were broken up, and destroyed. The second men were created, were created of wood, and they populated the earth. But they did not remember their creator, they walked aimlessly about on all fours. So Huracan, the Heart of Heaven, the creator, sent a great flood which fell upon the heads of those wooden creatures and annihilated them. They were deluged by a heavy resin, which fell from the sky. The face of the earth was darkened and a black rain fell (obsidian like, ash, or asteroid?), by day and by night. The following sequence I think is unique in this type of myth; the animals, the birds and beasts of the stockyard, and even the household implements rise and abuse these men. Finally, the men fled in terror to the housetops, and the trees, and even the caverns. But even these refused them access. The descendants of these wooden men are said to be monkeys.

One point of irony involves the men made of mud and then wood, how interesting the mummies of S. America Pacific coast recently found are made of these materials. Is this a commentary of a practice that of the cult of the dead that by the time it reached the Popul Vuh (A Book of the Dead) it was so remote that they considered these people as old as the monkeys? The walking on fours seems to imply that they some how knew our ancestors of the 'walking on fours' larger humanoids may have not quite died out in the memory of these regions?


36 posted on 05/06/2003 9:25:17 AM PDT by Light Speed
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To: Light Speed
Early History would seem to be more complicated that previously imagined.
37 posted on 05/06/2003 9:37:28 AM PDT by Mike Darancette (Soddom has left the bunker.)
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To: VadeRetro; blam
I think Velikovsky just forwards that spark of inquisitiveness..one that see's so many pieces and tries to find a mechanism for them to join.

I don't go hard on the man..he's a Genius..if you consider his pulling together of mythology...forwarding of Academic construct and data...willing to let his work be parused by Einstein.

The V surely got things wrong..but He makes us consider this one point.

Man saw ,and was driven by the results of a catastrophe, that was world wide in scope....the Mythology is blatantly clear.

How can they slam Velikovsky....where in todays present think tank concept forwarded at SPACE.COM..is that the inner Solar System had a 5th planet between Mars and Jupiter..then fell into the Sun on elliptical decay.

This is the same community that slams Velikovsky as an astro mechanics failure...then conceeds that things exist.[Planets..comets]...and they perturb the other known planets..then they are destroyed.

Here's Velikovsky simply saying..."something passed near...the Earth got throttled"...

Velikovsky is a pioneer....Like the guys who surveyed North America.

Lots of mistakes in comparrison to our forwardings via satillite and computer..but still....they were first.

**** A freind sat in on a lecture from Velikovsky on the west coast...he passed away a few months later;

He spoke about interdimensional physics...this guy's mind was sharp..right to the end.

38 posted on 05/06/2003 9:48:28 AM PDT by Light Speed
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To: Mike Darancette; blam
Tragically...so much critical info was destroyed by men who thought God told them to destroy the works of the Heathen or Infidel.

The Chinese burned and destroyed their own history.

The Spanish burned and destroyed how many ancient cultures testimonies?

The destruction of the Library of Alexandria.

Its destruction a second time by some Muslim Lunatic leader.

With side scan Sonar..and sounding technology...I believe they will find habitations below the ocean..and who knows..some decipherable record that will rock mankinds thinking.

Lets hope there is something burried out there....cuz it looks like the Lunatics destroyed most of our history allready.

39 posted on 05/06/2003 10:01:31 AM PDT by Light Speed
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To: longshadow
Desperately-needed placemarker.
40 posted on 05/06/2003 10:17:12 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.)
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