Diesel engine may have sucked out submarine oxygen

Sydney Morning Herald ^ | May 5, 2003 | Indira Lakshmanan in Beijing

[Cincinatus' Wife]

The Chinese submarine accident in which 70 crew died may have been due to a malfunctioning diesel engine that sucked all the oxygen out of the hull, a Chinese Navy official says.

Investigators believe the crew died within two minutes, after submarine No.361 descended on a training mission two weeks ago. All the victims were found at their posts, and there were no signs of struggle, suggesting that death came upon the men quickly, the official said.

The accident occurred during a training mission on April 16, the official said, but was not discovered by the navy until 10 days later, when the submarine crew did not contact their base as expected. The crew had been instructed to maintain radio silence during training to practise concealing their location.

The Chinese military publicly attributed the tragedy to mechanical failure, giving no further explanation, but Western naval specialists familiar with diesel-powered submarines said the official's account was plausible.

The official said the submarine had charged its batteries from its diesel engine at the surface in preparation for descent. Diesel power is switched off in preparation for descent because diesel requires oxygen to burn, the specialists said.

In this case, mechanical failure is believed to have caused the diesel power to continue running, depriving the hull of its oxygen and suffocating the crew, the official said.

"That is very plausible, and I'm inclined to believe that's what happened," said retired admiral Lloyd Vasey, who served 36 years in the US Navy, 12 of them aboard diesel-powered submarines.

Mr Vasey said from Honolulu that "the first thing you do when you dive is you shut off the diesel because it sucks up a lot of air, switch to battery power and close the hatch. People don't forget to shut it down", he said of the diesel engine, which in Ming-class submarines is easily shut off.

Mechanical failure of the engine, air induction valve in the engine room, secondary air ducts, or a gasket were possible explanations, Mr Vasey said.

"But it's possible we may never know the cause."

The No.361 submarine was built in 1995, making it one of the newer of the Ming class that China produced from 1971 to 1996. Intended for patrols and coastal defence, it is copied from the decades-old Soviet Romeo class, which was based on a German U-boat produced in 1944.

The Ming class is considered obsolete by the Federation of American Scientists, but Mr Vasey said that he could see no reason for Beijing to retire its fleet of Ming-class submarines, now estimated at 13, because "accidents can happen to any subs".

The Ming class usually holds nine officers and 46 sailors, suggesting that other technicians or staff officers were aboard for this exercise.

The accident highlights vulnerability in China's ageing fleet of domestic and Russian submarines, estimated to number about 90.

Submarines are tactically useful for China, especially to enforce its claim on the island of Taiwan, because they are difficult to detect, and unseen submarines are a powerful deterrent to any enemy.

The Boston Globe

[The Pheonix]

Wow, what a rascist posting

such language. Hilter and the Nazis would love you, man

Such hatred. Rarely see this type of hared spewing at such a rate in the FreeP Forum

You truly deserve to be on this Forum

By the way, just curious, are a WASP, African-American , India-Indian American Hispanic or what, You don't have to answer if you don't want to

[WhiskeyPapa]

I think a diesel engine would be much louder than a nuclear powered ship.

It seems odd, but nuclear powered boats are noisier than diesel boats. A diesel boat can go to battery power and be quiet. A nuclear powered boat always has the reactor plumbing on. That noise is more detectable.

Walt

[Blueflag]

you may find that the most-advanced nuke plants on the newest boats don't even have to run the reactor pumps (when they want to be silent). Clever convection circulation plumbing. Informed sources point to 'zero' reactor noises.

Any boat underway, however, is now detectable for the right nations.

[WhiskeyPapa]

you may find that the most-advanced nuke plants on the newest boats don't even have to run the reactor pumps (when they want to be silent). Clever convection circulation plumbing. Informed sources point to 'zero' reactor noises.

Gee, don't tell me that crap if you have to turn around and kill me.

Change of subject: Didn't I read a while back that stealth technology for aircraft could be defeated by monitoring the micro changes in air pressure that were detectable as the aircraft moved through the air?

That is, the detection was not dependent on radar.

Walt

[judicial meanz]

Surely someone would have noticed the 4" vaccuum being pulled because diesel is running with the head valve shut

The only reason I didnt address the snorkel mast was because I was considering the normal surface ventilation lineup, exhausting through the muffler. I considered the fact they were probably bringing air in through the control room hatch or the main induction, like most boats do in open ocean

Those Romeo boats are so hacked up and back-engineered by the Chinese I doubt that they even resemble the Soviet era boats. Ship alterations were probably made that affected every system, and weapons modifications probably were made that caused more problems on top of it.

I definitely always did notice that 4" vacuum. Especially when my sinus cavity involuntarily drained dramatically. I am sure you guys know that feeling very well!

[null and void]

And yet, the Chinese engineers I've worked with are very good...

[The Pheonix]

Hope you don't mind if I join in

Yes, I read in the 2000 issue of Newsweek that claimed to hear from their Pentagon source that China has a new type of "passive" radar, scientific-genus, type "pcl", that can detect stealth fighters/bombers. The article claimed that Nato code-named it the "nanchang". Claimed that it worked without sending out radar-waves but work by detecting disruptions to the different types of radio-waves, etc in the atmosphere when the stealth planes fly into their air-space. The Chinese "FT-2000" AAM system could be using this type of passive radar---and the "FT-2000" is the first and only one of its type in the world.

The Newsweek article said that the US Joint-Chiefs held an emergency meeting to discuss this and said afterwards that " henceforth the USAF may not be able to provide aircover for the Taiwanese Armed Forces..."

I asked my buddy who is a USN submarine radar-operator and he said " well, for every counter, there is a counter-counter."

[putupon]

Carbon Monoxide detectors have been moved to the top of the ChiComs shopping list when the Hildebeast gets elected.

[null and void]

Ahhhh, The good old Walther cycle...

[judicial meanz]

Frankly I suspect some type of weapons fuel leak spread through the ventilation lineup while they were submerged. They use so many nasty concoctions of fuel mixture on the weapons variants they carry or have produced that it leads the field.My guess is a guided missile variant they have produced having a catastrophic casing failure ( internal pressure buildup) and spreading toxic gas abundantly and quickly.

The second hypothesis would be phosgene gas from the battery, caused by bad electrodes on the snorkel mast not shutting the head valve and allowing water to enter the ship and find its way through the ventilation system to the battery ( most ventilated part of the ship). However, that creates flooding, and the ship should have sunk, or at least had major flooding possibly compounded by fire or battery explosion ( gas, hydrogen generation, and electrical shorts in the battery compartment) .

Just my opinion.

[Shooter 2.5]

It looks like you're writing about the Kennedy's.

[green team 1999]

"made in china"

[The Pheonix]

RE your post #11

Oh plu-leeze, give us a break

There are hundreds of Chinese pilots in Singapore Airlines, Cathay-Pacific Airways, Malaysia Airlines, and all these airlines have excellent safety records

[Blueflag]

re: "Didn't I read a while back that stealth technology for aircraft could be defeated by monitoring the micro changes in air pressure that were detectable as the aircraft moved through the air?

That is, the detection was not dependent on radar."

The technology works better in a denser medium like water, but in theory, yes.

Also the technique using ambient RF energy as the transmission source and the stealth aircraft's changes in ambient RF as a means of detection are, ahem, theory as well. Stealth is never invisible -- it is low observable. Even if you can detect it, it doesn't mean you can successfully target it. Signal to noise on these exotic methods is really small, and if a stealth is or could be targeted, a jamming package can obscure the stealth. ECM gear on the stealth platform can enable a stealth to evade the threat and leave the area/ threat envolope. If the ECM source is not the stealth platform, the stealth platforms can move around almost with impunity.

It's one thing to detect, another to successfuly target and engage (and then survive your attempt to engage) a stealth platform.

[Blueflag]

Just write a more robust ATO that includes active jamming in the sortie/ strike group, and this 'breakthrough' goes away.

As I understand it, the system, originally developed I believe by Lockheed (hmmmmm how did it get to China?) works in a relatively quiet RF atmosphere. Increase the noise to signal ratio, and this tool is just so much useless moving metal.

[NFOShekky]

The PRC certainly builds crap, but unfortunately they build a lot of it. Pick up any object, knick-knack, etc in your home or office and look where it was made.

[The Pheonix]

Thanks for the info

Much appreciated

[NFOShekky]

"Wow, what a rascist posting. . ."

Is this a mistaken cross post??? I just don't see any racism on Brian's part. Please clarify.

[blam]

One of the most irritating things is to be snokleing in an old US diesel boat ( four 1600 HP GMC engines) and have it begin to rain. There is a sensor on the snorkel valve that slams shut when water is detected. The engines are still running and damn near sucks you ear drums out. There is also another sensor that shuts the engines down if the 'vacuum' becomes to great. It apparently did not work on the Chinese boat.

[Cincinatus' Wife]

I don't know how you submariners do/did it. You must have nerves of steel.