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"Unlike the American troops, we look the Iraqis in the eye"
The Daily Telegraph U.K. ^ | 4-05-03 | Not attributed

Posted on 05/04/2003 3:04:58 PM PDT by WaterDragon

He counts his unit's kills meticulously, each one a tick in black pen on his khaki helmet which is, by now, bleached by the sun and battered from battle. Perched in the turret of his tank, just behind the barrel that is hand-painted with intimidating war cries such as "kill 'em all" or "I'm a motherf***ing warrior", he talks only to those Iraqis with the temerity to approach: he feels vulnerable without a 60-ton Abrams girding his loins. It is impossible to read anything in his eyes because they are always obscured by mirrored sunglasses.

Only in the safety of his unit's headquarters, behind barbed wire and protected by heavy weaponry, does the American marine take off his body armour and helmet. On the streets of Baghdad, out on patrol, he is wary and ill at ease.

Friendly approach: an Irish Guard patrols the streets of Basra Every Iraqi is a potential troublemaker, a possible target. If one fails to stop at his checkpoint, his response will be to open fire. If more than 50 gather to chant anti-American slogans, he will likely flood the street with soldiers. If he so much as suspects that the crowd has weapons he may well consider a full-scale counter-attack.

Still in full battle dress, though the war is over, he is awesome to behold. His President insists that he was never a member of an invading force, that he was a liberator and is now a peacekeeper. Yet much of the time he is loathed, despised and spat upon by those Iraqis for whose freedom he fought. He and his comrades are among the most hated men in the Iraqi capital.

The manner in which the American forces stormed their way to Baghdad may indeed have been awesome. They fought the war with verve, with valour and with steely determination. How they are holding the peace, however, makes a woeful contrast.

British troops, by comparison, are welcomed in southern Iraq with cries of "We love you Britannia, welcome British." In the south, the British not only won the trust of the locals during the war and used it effectively to gather vital intelligence, they kept it in the aftermath. The Americans, hampered by much stricter rules of engagement and with little experience of peacekeeping, are swiftly losing the battle for hearts and minds.

On the streets of Basra, Safwan and Az Zubayr in southern Iraq, British soldiers, with years of experience of dealing with civilian populations in war zones such as Northern Ireland and of peacekeeping in the Balkans and Sierra Leone, are treated as saviours. They have abandoned their helmets in favour of their more people-friendly berets, have taken off their body armour and mingle with the locals. They have helped to set up a local police force and a council to get the city's infrastructure running smoothly.

"Have you met my buddy Ahmed?" says Sergeant Euan Andrews, from the 7th Parachute Regiment of the Royal Horse Artillery, as he swings an arm around an Iraqi by his side outside the freshly painted Basra police station.

Ahmed, beaming in a baseball cap emblazoned with the words "City of Basra police" in Arabic and holding a truncheon, punches his new friend in playful camaraderie. "A month ago we were shooting at each other," says Euan, "now we are on the same side."

As Ahmed, chest swelling with pride, steps out to deal with the next car check by himself, Euan gives him an encouraging nod. "They're all getting there," he says. "It will take time. There is still a lot of: 'He is my cousin, my friend, he is ok.' We have had to explain that police must be impartial. But slowly we are getting there."

That afternoon the soldiers are playing football against the locals and in the evening they have volunteered to repaint the local school. The Iraqis loiter to chat as they pass the station, shaking soldiers by the hand and bringing them home-cooked meals. "Our methods of dealing with the locals are very, very different from that of the Yanks," one officer says over a cup of local coffee. ("Awful," he says, "but they like it when we drink it.")

"Unlike the Americans we have taken off our helmets and sunglasses and we look the locals in the eye. If we see one vehicle heading at speed towards a checkpoint we let it through. It is only one vehicle. We call our method "raid and aid" - don't ask me what we call the American way."

In Basra, raid and aid worked. For two weeks the 7th Armoured Brigade waited at the bridge before entering the city. During that time it built up its relationship with those Iraqis brave enough to provide intelligence about the Fedayeen - Saddam's loyalist fighters - who had held the city to ransom.

The result was that when the British did enter, they knew where to go, who to go after and who to trust. For them the rules of engagement changed as warfare became peacekeeping. Now, they no longer automatically return fire. They wait. Often Iraqi gunfire is a sign of celebration at the return of electricity or running water. They know it is not necessarily attacking fire.

The Americans are, admittedly, bound by much less flexible rules. Their Force Protection Doctrine decrees that all soldiers must wear helmets and body armour in a war zone at all times and that gun fire must be met with response. They also have little experience in the peacekeeping arena, and their experience of urban warfare in the battle for Hue during the Vietnam war and more recently in Somalia has left them jumpy.

The British have learned in the past 30 years that good information on the enemy was their best protection and that putting soldiers at risk to get it was justified; jungle ambushes in Vietnam made the Americans obsessed with "force protection".

Since the killing of four American soldiers by an Iraqi suicide bomber 10 days into the conflict, they have become even more wary of locals.

Last week, Americans killed 15 people - among them two young boys - at Fallujah, an impoverished Shia area 30 miles west of Baghdad - when locals became angry at their occupation of the local school. Though the US troops say they fired in self-defence - and may well have done so - television footage of bleeding Iraqis, clearly unarmed, lying on the roads, have shocked Western viewers.

In Baghdad, where the Americans rarely leave their compounds, lawlessness is widespread. On Friday, when locals realised that Saddam's sister owned a lavish home in Al Jadria in the west of the city, they stormed the house. Pianos, furniture and paintings were dragged away by a mob of looters. When US soldiers arrived they stopped only long enough to warn journalists not to remove anything or they would be arrested, then left the mob rampaging through the house. "I'm not going near that lot," one marine said. "I don't feel safe anywhere near them, unless I am behind a whopping big tank."

In the more affluent areas of Al Mansour and Al Kaarada, local families have been forced to build barricades to keep out thieves as the American soldiers refuse to patrol.

In the Shia ghettos of Saddam City and Khadamia, where the Americans are reluctant to go even in tanks, the local imams have taken matters in hand. "Imams have set up local security stations in the hospitals," says Yousef al Alwani. "Guns that have been looted, many from Saddam's palace, are brought to the mosques and from there the imams take them to the hospital and arm the local militia who are now policing us. The Americans don't protect us and they don't help us. What else are they doing but occupying us?"

Cultural background, say military analysts, explains much of the British success in southern Iraq. "Britain and other European nations have imperial traditions," says Stuart Crawford, a retired lieutenant colonel in the 4th Royal Tank Regiment. "As a result, British troops have been inculcated with the ethos and tradition of colonial policing, where small numbers of men would have close contact on a daily basis with local populations. But America is a young country with no colonial past."

In some respects it is a paradox that Britain, which once ruled an empire, should have a more flexible and sensitive army than America.

At the end of the 19th century, the howitzer and the Maxim gun were the equivalent of the cruise missile and the tankbuster. To maintain control yet allow and encourage people to live in their traditional ways, they became accustomed to understanding and respecting local culture and customs. It is a lesson that the American army has yet, it seems, to learn.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; United Kingdom; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: allies; american; antiamerican; boorishness; british; drivel; iraqifreedom; mediabias; order; totalbs; troops
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To: Incorrigible; Happygal
Thanks for posting the picture of Happygal for me, Incorrigible.

I take back my offer to send you my picture, Happygal.
341 posted on 05/05/2003 5:32:08 AM PDT by Pukka Puck
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To: WaterDragon; onehipdad; MadIvan
Snide, slyly disparaging, is the perfect word for this article.

Any self respecting American would be outraged at the obvious hatchet job done on Americans for no obvious purpose, except to cater to anti-Americanism, which apparently the author and the putatively conservative Telegraph, sense in even conservative British readers.

The author could have easily written a story praising the British troops and their methods and successes without having at the same time compare the British methods with what he purports to be the American methods. But this was not simply a boost British article, it was fundamentally a bash Americans piece.

I certainly share Waterdragon's outrage.
342 posted on 05/05/2003 5:39:26 AM PDT by Pukka Puck
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To: Thumper1960; WaterDragon; MadIvan
God bless the bleeding Brits, but to hell with snide British writers and so called conservative British newspapers that publish their crappy articles.
343 posted on 05/05/2003 5:43:07 AM PDT by Pukka Puck
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To: Thumper1960; MadIvan; WaterDragon
I don't take the British Tommy's comments too seriously. I don't think the biased writer quoted either the British Tommys or the American Marines accurately or if the quotes were accurate, that the quotes reflect the overall reality on the ground in Iraq.

The story is deliberately insulting to Americans. The author is an anti-American hack. That is obvious and he is no more to be taken seriously than a similarly anti-American hack writing in the New York Times, the Nation, or some other leftist rag.

The point, which you and many others ignore, is this anti-American rant was published by a conservative British newspaper. If this is the attitude of conservative Britons, we need to understand it and base our dealings with Britain accordingly.
344 posted on 05/05/2003 5:49:58 AM PDT by Pukka Puck
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To: WaterDragon; MadIvan
"The issue in this thread is not the British troops, "Thumper. They're marvelous.

Can you imagine a truly conservative American newspaper, such as the Washington Times, for example, printing an article snidely sneering at British troops, suggesting that, maybe, they're wimps? Can you?

If a conservative American newspaper did that, we'd be all over them, for sure, for sheer stupidity."

Funny that you have to constantly steer intelligent people back to the point, which should be glaringly obvious to anyone who is not brain dead or a committed leftist.
345 posted on 05/05/2003 5:52:43 AM PDT by Pukka Puck
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To: Thumper1960
"Now, I'm sure the Brits may have said something along the vein of what was "reported", but not meant in the way the paper portrays it."

The point is that the conservative Telegraph printed this article. It speaks volumes about conservative British attitudes toward America and is well worth noting.
346 posted on 05/05/2003 5:55:40 AM PDT by Pukka Puck
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To: onehipdad; MadIvan; WaterDragon
"It's definitely NOT ok with me, just understandable given the source, and discounted by the same token."

The source is the premier conservative newspaper in Britain, thus the attitude and source should be noted and remembered.
347 posted on 05/05/2003 5:58:17 AM PDT by Pukka Puck
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To: Pukka Puck
Can you imagine a similarly vicious attack on British troops being printed in the Wall Street Journal?

From prior to March to May, Pukka. 2 articles. That's all. As for the WSJ, that's a cheap shot - you know that unless you have a subscription it's difficult to go and retreive that information. In any event, I've been here for 4 / 5 years, if I reacted to all the anti-British commentary that I've seen here in that time with the same vehemence that you do, I would have had a coronary.

All this does is make you look shrill, antagonistic and quite frankly, nuts.

But then again, I don't believe that your motivation is due to some perceived slight to the troops, it's your own pride and monstrous ego in this. A man who was truly, deeply indignant, would rather have written a letter to the editor, rather than hovering like a vulture for the opportunity to do a bit of Brit-bashing.

Ivan

348 posted on 05/05/2003 6:28:57 AM PDT by MadIvan
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To: Pukka Puck
I also remember that "soft and easy" MO of sitting by and letting the Sadamnites slaughter the civilians in Basra with artillery, this while the Brit commanders timidly played whist outside the city without proactively intervening.

Rubbish. You want to try that with Lt. Col. Tim Collins?

Ivan

349 posted on 05/05/2003 6:30:20 AM PDT by MadIvan
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To: Pukka Puck
So much for your "not one person" shares my opinion, Ivan.

Fine, if the Americans all share your opinion, then quite frankly there's nothing much more to be said. I will leave Free Republic for good. I'm sick to death of listening to this nonsense.

You insult my country, its commanders, who by all accounts have performed a brave service. You don't know anything about Basra, the firefights that went on - these were chillingly reported on Sky News, using night vision goggles. There was combat, pain and death. For you to denigrate the commanders, the British army, the bravery they showed or their progress is cheap, swinish, and arrogant. You have not proven that you are a military man, a military expert, nor have any expertise to back up your assertion that it was "too slow". All you have are the convictions of your own vanity and arrogance. And when you are called on it, you proceed to try and turn it on the person who is calling you out.

Obviously this wounds, otherwise you wouldn't lie in wait like this for the first opportunity that the Telegraph presents. I repeat: I don't like this article, I disagree with it. But this article is not an excuse for you or anyone else to denigrate the achievements of the British troops or their commanders. The fact that you and others would do so, is frankly disgusting. If it is the general opinion of posters here, I will tell Jim Rob to cancel my account, and I will be gone. Because quite frankly, I have no desire to hang out with people who having been shown the truest friendship possible, spit back in the face of that friendship.

Ivan

350 posted on 05/05/2003 6:36:21 AM PDT by MadIvan
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To: Pukka Puck
I understand your concerns and comments. I don't subscribe to the beliefe that a "conservative" press, or a "liberal" press is, in itself, monolithic. Over the years, I've read articles in the "conservative" press that angered me. Just as I've read articles in the "liberal" press that I found quite agreeable. I don't know what was in the heart of the writer, or if there was editorial tampering with the original piece of the writer. It may sound strange to say.....I know what I know. In my heart, I know the piece isn't representative of the boots on the ground in Iraq. Frankly, what the boots on the ground think and believe carry more weight with me than a keyboard pecker in London......or New York.
351 posted on 05/05/2003 7:20:40 AM PDT by Thumper1960
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To: MadIvan
You seem to have some trouble with the concept that there is a vast middle ground between "not one person" and all Americans.

Try to be a tad more reasonable and you will be more interesting.

Straw man arguments are so boring.
352 posted on 05/05/2003 7:20:45 AM PDT by Pukka Puck
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To: Pukka Puck
This is ridicoulous

Ok you wanted facts of what the uk did ive summarised them once, now a factfile.

1) Led the initial attack on al faw, force included 60 navy seals and 800 royals, mission was a success.

2) Worked with the usmarines on the port and town, during one exchange called up uk artillery to aid pinned down us marines (a favour the americans no doubt repaid, after all they are brothers in arms).

3) Captured several southern towns, including one of 140k population, and one of 300k population which was a military stronghold.

4) Protected the US supply lines after the initial ambushes on their lines, 16 air assault and the ghurkas were used on this mission

5) Patrolled the borders with contingents of air assault brigade

6) Took basra, basra was initially not an objective, containment was the standing orders. Orders on when to push where from CENTCOM.

7) In order to allow a speedy US advance took on the pows of both forces, typing up 600 men

Basic facts, uk forces account for around 2000 iraqi dead soldier and 5500 POWS. almost 3000 of those pows were taken by the 4000 royal marines in the operation.

Total soldiers on the ground 25000

So, silly articles exist, so what? i would have thought that the people here would have ridden above suggesting cowardice on the part of the uk.

If this is truly how people feel on this forum, that the uk soldiers are "inferior" or "cowards", then fine. Ill have my membership cancelled.
353 posted on 05/05/2003 7:20:52 AM PDT by may18
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To: may18
Thank you for your very fine post, may18, none of which I disagree with.

Your post does not obviate, however, the fact that the "British pussyfooted around Basra for two full weeks" and that they "barely got past the outer city limits of Basra during the same time frame as the Americans conquered the rest of Iraq".
354 posted on 05/05/2003 7:23:52 AM PDT by Pukka Puck
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To: Thumper1960; MadIvan
"Frankly, what the boots on the ground think and believe carry more weight with me than a keyboard pecker in London......or New York."

As the Brits say, "Hear, hear!"
355 posted on 05/05/2003 7:25:19 AM PDT by Pukka Puck
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To: MadIvan
If it is the general opinion of posters here, I will tell Jim Rob to cancel my account, and I will be gone. Because quite frankly, I have no desire to hang out with people who having been shown the truest friendship possible, spit back in the face of that friendship.

That is does not include me. I worked with Brits in Germany in the late 70's. I had a wonderful relationship with them. I served under a Squadron leader Knight ( or kknnniggut as he pronounced it) during NATO exercises. A real fine and funny fellow, he introduced me to the 6th sense of a staff officer. I participated with the 1st Field Force in Hamlin, Germany. All of this only to say that I have had experience with the British forces, and to be able to say, with conviction, that anyone who criticises the British military are full of it!

British newspapers are a different story.

356 posted on 05/05/2003 7:26:01 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: MadIvan
Ivan, please stay on FR. Your contributions are invaluable. The Telegraph is clearly one of the best media outlets in either country. But here they've screwed up. It is only natural for those of us who take great pride in our country to take offense at this article, and for that reason you will see very emotional responses.

But they don't represent the spirit of FR any more than this article represents the spirit of the Telegraph...

As far as Basra, as everyone pointed out, of course the plan was not to "rush to the center of Basra" just as it wasn't to "Rush to the center of Nasariya", etc. My point was not that the Brits were wimps, but that they could be *painted* as wimps just as this article paints Americans as dull-minded murderous thugs.

Hopefully you've been on FR long enough to realize that a thick skin is something of a requirement to stay on here.

357 posted on 05/05/2003 7:28:03 AM PDT by EaglesUpForever (Boycott france and russia for at least 20 years)
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To: WaterDragon
bump
358 posted on 05/05/2003 7:30:59 AM PDT by VOA
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To: Pukka Puck
as pointed out, they were under us command.

when intelligence reported chamical ali in the city.

they had to get permission from centcom as it was a residential area.

anyway done with this thread. Have fun
359 posted on 05/05/2003 7:31:08 AM PDT by may18
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To: MadIvan
Ivan:

You can't leave, I won't allow it!

You are a fine gentleman and a scholar. Others... are not. Just the nature of an open online discussion forum.
360 posted on 05/05/2003 7:32:05 AM PDT by tictoc (On FreeRepublic, discussion is a contact sport.)
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