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To: Dr. Frank
But, that's not relevant to the question of whether they're (a) nat'l security hawks or (b) democracy evangelists, now is it?

Yes it is. I really have no idea whether they believe that the fight to spread righteousness around the world will improve our national security. Perhaps they do, perhaps they don't. I'll take them at their word that they do (if they claim such). The fact remains, it's a highly different approach to the matter than going after people who are either attacking us or are in a good position to attack us and have shown every motive for doing so. The difference is analogous to a cop who makes arrests based on the overall character of the arrestee, and one who makes arrests based on probable cause.

Ok, then well you lied or erred when you stated that neocons were just like other cons in all things.

If you want to say I erred then have at it. Personally I think you're engaging in a pointless semantic game. They come across as conservatives. Many conservatives, paleo- or otherwise, would have a lot of common ground with them (in that, among other things, we're all attracted to FR). I think you understand perfectly well what I'm saying but are trying to throw a monkey wrench into it for the sake of doing so.

276 posted on 05/06/2003 9:14:32 AM PDT by inquest
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To: inquest
I really have no idea whether they believe that the fight to spread righteousness around the world will improve our national security.

They are not "fighting to" spread righteousness around the world in the first place. They are trying to improve our national security. So they say. And you said you didn't doubt their sincerity (remember?). The fact, or possibility, or assertion, that in the process of trying to improve our national security righteousness ends up being spread around the world doesn't mean spreading righteousness around the world per se is their goal. I think you're more than smart enough to understand this.

The fact remains, it's a highly different approach to the matter

Different approach? Sure. They're strategizing more "long term", and all that. But so what? They're hawks, you're a hawk, they have a different way of going about "hawk"ing than you on certain matters (perhaps, I don't know much about your approach on anything, and it's not that important). Again, you're arguing about strategy, not motives. Can't you argue against policy proposal X on its own terms, without making reference to confusing, ill-understood political labels?

The difference is analogous to a cop who makes arrests based on the overall character of the arrestee, and one who makes arrests based on probable cause.

I'll have to take your word for it. I don't really know who you're talking about, or what view; and similarly I don't know what your alternative view is. Is this Iraq you're talking about? I just can't tell, it's a little fuzzy.

Personally I think you're engaging in a pointless semantic game.

That makes two of us. ;-)

It bears emphasizing, however, that we are engaging in a discussion underneath an article entitled "'Neocon' Becomes a Confusing Code Word". In this context semantics certainly is not irrelevant. And if nothing else, I think that the thesis of the article has been substantiated.

I'm sure there are still people who think of themselves as "neocons", and I'm sure there are (perhaps other) people who have ideas influenced by or similar to the original "neocons" and therefore can be called accurately by the term. I just have no real idea who these people are, apart from the few obvious ones (mostly they have a name of the format XXXXXXXXtz, far as I can tell). Neither, for that matter, do 99% of the people who use the term "neocon". Take a look at this article, which was posted on FR. It's a kind of pseudo film review in which some leftist writer onanistically derives comforting political lessons from the action movie X-Men 2. It contains the following sentences:

It’s just that the stunningly quick defeat of the Iraqi regime has amplified the neoconservative voice and made the protestors seem congenitally weak. [..] In a country where people deplete Home Depot of duct tape for fragile Homeland Security, the neocon call for war has struck a more resonant note as a form of patriotism than the liberal call for peace.

Those are the only two occurrences of "neoconservative" or "neocon" in the whole thing, and there is no background, context, or explanation about what a "neocon" is. Now please, in all honesty, can you really tell me with a straight face that this usage of "neocon" is correct? What does the guy even mean by it? Is it at all clear what is meant? Does he mean anything different from "conservative hawk"? And, what percentage of the MSNBC.COM readership is likely to read the word with the understanding that you have of it (or, think you have)? Conversely, what percentage is likely to read the term as "conservative hawk" (or, in many cases, "Bad Sinister Scary People")?

I remember a time, about ten years ago, when it was far more common to see the phrase "arch-conservative". How, exactly, the sequence of letters "arch" was supposed to modify "conservative", I could never figure out. All I knew was that Robert Bork or Ronald Reagan or Pat Buchanan or whoever was an "arch-conservative". Not just a conservative mind you but an "arch-conservative"! It soon became obvious to me that leftists put that "arch" in there for no other reason than that it sounds scarier. After all, we have "arch-villains", and those are scary, so "arch-conservatives" must be scary too, right? ;-) Well, nowadays, as other posters have pointed out, there are "neo-Nazis", so "neo-conservatives" must be something in the same vein.

Admit it: that will be the connotation for most people, and that's the intent of many who use the term.

"Neo-conservative" has become little more than the new "arch-conservative", for many. Your understanding may be stellar and clear as crystal (though I still don't get why you don't think Clinton's a "neocon", by your terms), but it does not contribute positively to everyday political debate.

Which is what the article points out and explains quite well.

277 posted on 05/06/2003 10:42:08 AM PDT by Dr. Frank fan
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