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To: Dataman
Your hypothesis of an ultimate turtle still doesn't answer the question. How did such a being come into existence?

Nor have you demonstrated the existence of any being not subject to the laws of the universe. All so-far observed beings are subject the laws of the universe.
397 posted on 05/03/2003 8:31:19 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Nor have you demonstrated the existence of any being not subject to the laws of the universe. All so-far observed beings are subject the laws of the universe.

It's simple. According to our materialistic view, all things must have a cause, nothing can come from nothing. As such, there must be a special entity that came from nothing to make it all. I believe that argument style is called "special pleading".
403 posted on 05/03/2003 9:12:25 PM PDT by Dimensio (Sometimes I doubt your committment to Sparkle Motion!)
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To: Doctor Stochastic
You are quite mistaken in all your points. Some of them have already been addressed on this thread, but I'll humor you. Let's first remind you of your statement at the end of your post:

All so-far observed beings are subject the laws of the universe.

1) You cannot know that unless you mean "observed by you." If so, your statement is rendered useless by not only your extremely limited observation but by an inductive and subjective method which is hamstrung by your materialistic bias.

2) If you mean "observed by all mankind," you cannot rely on that either. Materialists freely admit that mankind's observations are not completely trustworthy because they tend to interpret phenomena religiously.

3) There exist records of observed beings defying the laws of the universe.

4) Your theory of evolution defies the laws of the universe.

Your hypothesis of an ultimate turtle still doesn't answer the question. How did such a being come into existence?

Again, everything that has a beginning has a cause. Therefore there must have been a First Cause which is self-existent, self-explained and uncaused. To assume that God needed a beginning is to embrace the infinite regression which (as shown in infinite set theory) is impossible. Besides, the God who has revealed Himself tells us that He is the First Cause.

Nor have you demonstrated the existence of any being not subject to the laws of the universe.

There are some of you who have said that they would not be satisfied unless God Himself appeared before them and revealed the mysteries of the universe. If that is the case, I imagine George Bush is required to come to you and justify his existence as well before you will believe he is President?

The evidence has been there all the time; the existence of something rather than nothing, the amazing order of the universe, the complex design in nature, the anthropic principle, the intelligence of man, the basic inborn knowledge of the existence of God, our sense of right and wrong, our search for meaning, our concept of good and evil and our ability to practice it. And there is more-- much more. It isn't the evidence that is lacking. The problem is the disregard and denial of the evidence.

499 posted on 05/04/2003 4:53:26 AM PDT by Dataman
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