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To: exmarine
My belief is logical, yours isn't, since you can't come up with a source for morality. Truth will always be logical.

I've given you the source for my belief several times. Your preconceived notions about how this debate should occur prevent you from seeing it. Why don't you go back over my previous post and see if you can't fathom it.

Your ability to make sense appears to be waning. "My belief is logical...[because] truth will always be logical." What? If it's the truth, then it's not a belief. If it's a belief, then it's something you acknowledge cannot be shown true. You are arguing in circles. Please, come out of your isolationist shell and at least try to understand what others are saying.

566 posted on 05/05/2003 10:04:24 AM PDT by laredo44
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To: laredo44
I've given you the source for my belief several times. Your preconceived notions about how this debate should occur prevent you from seeing it. Why don't you go back over my previous post and see if you can't fathom it.

I can't fathom it becuase it is illogical. In a debate, logic rules. For example, you said: Your statement is simply untrue. If there is no God, there must be another source, or sources for man, as man did not create himself. That source may have absolutes and they may be categorized as moral.

This doesn't make sense. You can't name another source for absolutes! Why not? If you can't name it it doesn't exist! If it isn't God, then man is the ONLY choice left.

I've already given you my moral absolute: Liberty. Its source is the process that created us. In other words, we were created in such a way that liberty is a moral absolute. It is moral because we have the choice of denying liberty. But, if we deny liberty, dire consequences will ensue. Dire consequences always have and always will result from enslavements.

Non sequitir. Liberty is an absolute right but is not a source for absolutes. "Dire consequences" have nothing to do with the question at hand - which is, what is the source of moral absolutes? No one is arguing as to whether liberty is a moral absolute, what we are trying to find out is: WHO SAYS LIBERTY IS A MORAL ABSOLUTE? You? You have no moral authority and neither does Ayn Rand! Our founders declared it for you in the Decl. of Independence - "...endowed by OUR CREATOR with certain unalienable rights..." In other words, this moral absolute is from God. Name another source for it that makes sense. You cannot. Therefore, my statement stands. Moral absolutes must be from God, or man makes up his own - there are no other choices.

569 posted on 05/05/2003 11:12:34 AM PDT by exmarine
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To: laredo44
Your ability to make sense appears to be waning. "My belief is logical...[because] truth will always be logical." What? If it's the truth, then it's not a belief. If it's a belief, then it's something you acknowledge cannot be shown true. You are arguing in circles. Please, come out of your isolationist shell and at least try to understand what others are saying.

It is you who are not understanding. Just because I believe something does not make it true. People believe in many false things. You can believe something sincerely and be sincerely wrong. If logic and the evidence do not support it, then it is false. If logic and the evidence do support it, then one can conclude it is true. For example, "I exist" is a true statement. If I did not exist I could not ask the question. See how it works? Now you try it.

570 posted on 05/05/2003 11:17:28 AM PDT by exmarine
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