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To: wolf6656
It seems to me that the conservatives who despise Rand are the Morality police,

If you read the Whitaker Chambers piece linked to earlier in the thread (1957, National Review, _the_ classic attack on Rand) you won't get support for your view.

Underlying Chambers critique as far as I can figure it out are a couple of assumptions that seem to be shared by a majority (maybe only a plurality?) of Freepers:

(1) A man-made or man-based morality is not really a correct moral system, since morailty comes from God alone.

(2) Man-made moral codes lead to totalitarianism if carried to extremes since man will revert to evil measures to enforce them if unconstrained by a correct moral system.

That seems to be the basis of Chambers claim that Rand was advocating "to the ovens go".

When I was younger the Chambers critique made no sense to me at all. I just didn't know what he was talking about and nobody I knew was able to explain it to me.

It looks like actually Chambers and Rand are fighting over a premise or an assumption on the question "Can there be morality without God?"

I believe that for either side to call the other "extremist" or "totalitarian" misses the point.

They have an honest disagreement on a fundamental assumption.

Both are very good advocates for their views and imho we need every man and woman on board for the ongoing battle against the dangerous Utopian leftists who have shredded our institutions and our culture.
361 posted on 05/02/2003 5:51:17 AM PDT by cgbg (FYI. I am on Rand's side on this one.)
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To: cgbg
Man-made moral codes lead to totalitarianism if carried to extremes since man will revert to evil measures to enforce them if unconstrained by a correct moral system.

This position is what I've been arguing against in my several "might makes right" refutation posts. Moral codes will only lead to totalitarianism if the assumption of might makes right is true. If, on the other hand, it is right that makes might, as I assert, we will not drift inexorably into totalitarianism.

Right makes might is the concept that right attracts adherents and wrong drives them away. Might becomes based on strength in numbers, and numbers are based on being right.

Liberty being right will "outdraw" totalitarianism which is wrong, and the might of the free will overpower the weakness of the tyrannt.

I certainly see history as proving this out.

363 posted on 05/02/2003 6:30:43 AM PDT by laredo44
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To: cgbg
-- a couple of assumptions that seem to be shared by a majority (maybe only a plurality?) of Freepers:
(1) A man-made or man-based morality is not really a correct moral system, since morailty comes from God alone.

That all 'morality' is 'man made' is evidenced by the fact it is based on a ubiquitous 'golden rule' type principle that all known cultures & religions embrace in one form or another. The golden rule works, as saint, sinner, savage or sophisticate can attest.

(2) Man-made moral codes lead to totalitarianism if carried to extremes since man will revert to evil measures to enforce them if unconstrained by a correct moral system.

Our secular political moral code, our constitution, works well, when honored.
'Moral' absolutists do not so honor, and our drift to totalitarianism can be seen to start with the rise to power of the socialist/prohibitionists in the early 1900's.

the That seems to be the basis of Chambers claim that Rand was advocating "to the ovens go". When I was younger the Chambers critique made no sense to me at all. I just didn't know what he was talking about and nobody I knew was able to explain it to me. It looks like actually Chambers and Rand are fighting over a premise or an assumption on the question "Can there be morality without God?".

'Morality' without a belief in a god is seen to exist in many non religious people. Denials of this fact of life are sheer fanaticism, a sickness, imo.

I believe that for either side to call the other "extremist" or "totalitarian" misses the point. They have an honest disagreement on a fundamental assumption. Both are very good advocates for their views and imho we need every man and woman on board for the ongoing battle against the dangerous Utopian leftists who have shredded our institutions and our culture.

Sorry, but imo it is sick to see your religious or political opponent as 'immoral'.

"The continuous disasters of man's history are mainly due to his excessive capacity and urge to become identified with a tribe, nation, church or cause, and to espouse its credo uncritically and enthusiastically, even if its tenets are contrary to reason, devoid of self-interest and detrimental to the claims of self-preservation. We are thus driven to the unfashionable conclusion that the trouble with our species is not an excess of aggression, but an excess capacity for fanatical devotion.
-Arthur Koestler

431 posted on 05/02/2003 12:30:27 PM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be a 'decent human being', but me flesh is weak.)
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