Ayn Rand and the Intellectuals

Sierra Times ^ | 5/1/03 | Ray Thomas

[exmarine]

I never said anything about the bible, other than I don't believe that it is the inerrant word of God. I would not assume to judge what God is good for...I am just thankful for my life, and everything that He has provided for us.

This life is temporary and very very short. The psalmist tells us that man flourishes like flowers in the field - here today gone tomorrow. Have you given thought to what happens when you die? Do you know where you are going?

[stuartcr]

I have given thought to what happens after death, but I don't dwell on it, as it is inevitable, and I have no concept of what happens. As I said, I hope there is an afterlife, but as a mere human, I can't conceive of what it could be. I don't believe in hell, because, as you said, this is a very, very short life, and I don't think we as humans could possibly do anything bad enough, that would warrant eternal punishment and damnation in the all-engulfing flames of hades.

[laredo44]

in fact, you are not even able to name a possibile source from your imagination!

Actually, I have named a possible source of morals. Incredibly, it is the same source as you assert -- the source of man.

[ChadGore]

Ayn bump

[exmarine]

I have given thought to what happens after death, but I don't dwell on it, as it is inevitable, and I have no concept of what happens. As I said, I hope there is an afterlife, but as a mere human, I can't conceive of what it could be. I don't believe in hell, because, as you said, this is a very, very short life, and I don't think we as humans could possibly do anything bad enough, that would warrant eternal punishment and damnation in the all-engulfing flames of hades.

You don't have to conceive of it - Jesus has told you what will happen - in the bible. The goats will be separated from the sheep - the goats will be sent into everlasting separation from God and the sheep will be ushered into unimaginably wonderful eternal life with Jesus Christ. I didn't use to believe in hell either (life is hell, right?), but Jesus believes in it - He created it for Satan and his angels, but those who reject Christ will go there as well. Will there be actual fire? I believe the "fire" may be a metaphor for anguish. Eternity is a long time. I want to remind you about God's laws - God does not grade on a curve - if you have broken His laws, you will be judged for it by the Perfect Judge unless you are covered by the atonement of Jesus Christ. Here is an analogy for you: If you were a judge in a courtroom and your soon was arrested for a felony and brought before you for sentencing - suppose he is really sorry and sobbing and you knew in your heart he would never do it again - would you have to punish him under the laws of the state you are sworn to uphold - YES if you are worth your salt. Now, imagine a perfect judge - would He have to punish you? YES. How could a loving God send someone to hell you might ask? Your own sins condemn you if you you do not have Christ as your covering.

[exmarine]

Actually, I have named a possible source of morals. Incredibly, it is the same source as you assert -- the source of man.

Which man? Ayn Rand? The U.N.? The U.S.? Who sets the universal standard for morals? One man's lie is another man's truth. This is mere moral relativism! And it doesn't work! So much for objectivism!

[unspun]

I'm not saying that there aren't important objective criteria here for a person's moral development. I'm just saying there's an inner sense too.

[unspun]

I have enjoyed your fasscinating and superb dialogue here. Please forgive this interjection, but I wonder what made J.S. Mill think that taking away evil in the world has anything to do with God's power? Power can only do what power can do. I might as well ask our dear general to make a square circle, as to ask how a Good God if he is omnipotent, permit evil in the world.

To me, it seems to boil down to something as simple as:

1. God not being the one responstible for evil, though he was prescient of it, for only the practitioners are responsible for evil, as morality tells us.
2. God granting only good and perfect gifts, which do not loose value, though they may change in function.
3. ....and yes: God developed a greater good. I don't see that I need to 'show' that the greater good is compensatory for the evil. There is no comparison between good (what is of God) and evil (what is disagreement and disobedience with God) and again, God is not responsible for the disagreement or disobedience with him. The "greater" is simply greater than had God never created beings who could share in his loving relationship.

[unspun]

Thank you Diamond. Seems like I'm challenged to read anyhing over 3 pages lately, but this should be interesting to look through:
http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/onds.pdf
...along with Alamo-Girl's links:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/898307/posts?page=1180#1180

[unspun]

The "greater" is simply greater than had God never created beings who could share in his loving relationship.

And that seems infinitely greater, for any who accept it (if infinity can be compared to {0})!

[unspun]

J.S. Mill

One more thing, though: I like that quotation of his a about commitment to just warfare. (Nothing else, just warfare. No, no, no....)

[laredo44]

An old legal maxim states:

When you have the facts, argue the facts.

When you have the law, argue the law.

When you have neither the facts nor the law, pound on the table and shout.

You're doing an awful lot of pounding and shouting, ex.

[exmarine]

That isn't even a good red herring. Just answer the questions please:

Which man? Ayn Rand? The U.N.? The U.S.? Who sets the universal standard for morals? One man's lie is another man's truth. This is mere moral relativism! And it doesn't work! So much for objectivism!

It appears that you are not able to adequately defend your position. Maybe you could send me an objectivist who can...so far I haven't found any.

[Misterioso]

So, your position is that certainty is impossible. Of course, it's just a guess on your part, right?

[stuartcr]

Life is not hell.

[ChadGore]

bttt

[stuartcr]

Yes, a God-given sense of morality. I just don't think we all have the same kind/level/amount...whatever you want to call it.

[Misterioso]

I think Ayn Rand proved that man's life is the standard which all men can use to determine his values. As an atheist, that works for me, but her proof does not satisfy you. I have no problem determining what is right and what is wrong. I have never been arrested in 67 years.

[Misterioso]

The question is, rather, do atheists and agnostics have any rational excuse for their opinions concerning right and wrong?

You mean that morality is just a matter of opinion and then, for you, it remains only to determine which argument is the most rational. My argument from natural rights seems the most rational. Rights from God seems less rational because I don't think there is such a thing.

[unspun]

Yes, a God-given sense of morality. I just don't think we all have the same kind/level/amount...whatever you want to call it.

I don't have the exact quote, but Francis Schaeffer was known to say something like, "one of our biggest problems is that we underestimate the consequences of the fall."