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Public Domain Hi-Eff Engine Design DIY
4/28/2003 | John Jamieson

Posted on 04/28/2003 6:10:21 AM PDT by John Jamieson

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To: dalereed
Yes one can wind a coil for a few bucks, but that is only one part of just the electromagnetic system. The configuration of the rest of the components is also critical.
41 posted on 04/29/2003 7:16:34 AM PDT by Jack of all Trades
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To: tacticalogic
At high speed both the opening and closing delays eat into the effective event angle. Valve motion is also not linear with time. The valve may not even start to move for a significant portion of the delay.

On the other end of the speed range, the open/shut nature of this valve would require a separate idle air control system. Actually, you would need a throttle plate too. Camless engines are coming, but the ones I've seen have continuously variable, electrohydraulic acutators.

42 posted on 04/29/2003 7:40:00 AM PDT by Jack of all Trades
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To: Jack of all Trades
Turbo-compounding is the usual approach, not turbo charging.

I have no interest in exploring this further, that's why I put it in the public domain.

Solenoid valve train is laughable, only electrically controlled hydraulics can do it. Power required is in excess of a horsepower per valve.

43 posted on 04/29/2003 8:04:22 AM PDT by John Jamieson
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To: Jack of all Trades
the standard method for recovering waste energy from the exhaust stream is a turbocharger

Bingo. I see this as a less-efficient means of turbocharging - except, as the author noted, the idea is to increase efficiency by artifically requiring the engine to run at WOT. So, amending your remark, how is this more efficient than a turbocharged 4-cyl with cylinder deactivation? Or for that matter, a hybrid?

BTW, the valve control would be very, very interesting. I'm thinking a 2-stroke engine's reed valve setup, modified with a clamp "shut-off," may be appropriate. And the loss in exhaust temperature will have the enviro-nuts a little upset.

Thinking some more, a rotary engine does not require a valve to shut-off. There could be multiple ports for the intake of the "slave" rotor through which the scavenged exhaust could be alternately routed, which may make the valve control a little simpler.

44 posted on 04/29/2003 8:47:59 AM PDT by Palmetto
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To: Palmetto
the idea is to increase efficiency by artifically requiring the engine to run at WOT.

The old "hit and miss" engines did this. The carb did not have a throttle plate in it. Speed was regulated by a governor that interposed an escapement kind of mechanism in the exhaust valve pushrod. The intake was just a poppet valve on a light spring. As long as the engine was running at sufficient speed, the escapement held the exhaust valve open, and the cylinder just pumped air in and out. When the speed dropped enough, the exhaust valve would be allowed to close, and cylinder vacuum would suck the intake valve open on the intake stroke, and the engine would fire again.

Huff.huff.huff..huff...huff....huff.....Slurp.POP!.huff.huff.huff..huff...huff....

45 posted on 04/29/2003 9:24:50 AM PDT by tacticalogic (Controlled application of force is the sincerest form of communication.)
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To: John Jamieson
I have no interest in exploring this further, that's why I put it in the public domain.

Fair enough, let's drop it then. One last thing though:

Solenoid valve train is laughable, only electrically controlled hydraulics can do it.

Laughable? It was done five years ago at Southwest Research Institute. See SAE Technical paper 981908. Expensive and complicated, yes, but not laughable. SWRi might be a good place to air your idea.

46 posted on 04/29/2003 9:49:40 AM PDT by Jack of all Trades
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To: Jack of all Trades
I believe you were the one that said all are electrohydraulic a few posts back.

"Characteristics of a Small Engine Equipped with an Electromagnetic Valve Actuation System," SAE Paper No. 981908, 1998.

I think the key here is "small", although I don't have access to the paper. (Good find though!)
47 posted on 04/29/2003 10:26:03 AM PDT by John Jamieson
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To: John Jamieson
Let us know if you give a try
48 posted on 04/29/2003 1:32:54 PM PDT by Orbiting_Rosie's_Head
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To: dalereed
Check out pneumatic and hydraulic control solenoids

50-400 bucks each, and probably not as fast as JJ needs.

49 posted on 04/29/2003 1:45:50 PM PDT by Yeti
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To: Yeti
"50-400 bucks each"

Better look again, the actuating solenoids, without valves, start at under $10 each buying them on a one only basis.
50 posted on 04/29/2003 1:48:59 PM PDT by dalereed
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To: RLK
Of interest ping..
51 posted on 04/29/2003 1:55:24 PM PDT by Jhoffa_ (Sammy to Frodo: "Get out. Go sleep with one of your whores!")
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To: John Jamieson
I remember McMaster-Carr has a selection of solenoids.. Box, push / pull and tubular..

You might try there.

www.mcmaster.com

Unlike some of the parts houses, they will sell to anyone with a Master Card. I get stuff from there all the time.

52 posted on 04/29/2003 2:01:30 PM PDT by Jhoffa_ (Sammy to Frodo: "Get out. Go sleep with one of your whores!")
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To: dalereed
You could be right, it's not my field of expertise.

But I DO have last year's Grainger catalog handy, and I just looked it up(I should have looked it up before I posted, but I should have read the whole thread before I posted, too), and the on/off solenoids are all more than $50 and the directional solenoids are all more than $200.

Now, I only know a little about hydraulics where it has been incidental to other areas of interest, but I do know a fair amount about EE, and I feel very comfortable saying that a solenoid that has the kind of response time JJ needs against the forces with which he is dealing will be very hard to come by.

53 posted on 04/29/2003 2:20:15 PM PDT by Yeti
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To: dalereed; John Jamieson; Jhoffa_
Okay, I may be in over my head, but lets look. JJ, ballpark: what kind of force, displacement and reponse time will you need?
54 posted on 04/29/2003 2:25:49 PM PDT by Yeti
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To: Jhoffa_
Give it up guys. The valves are available as mentioned in the paper. I'm not looking for the valves and I'm not going to build this engine. I put the idea in the public domain.
55 posted on 04/29/2003 4:55:19 PM PDT by John Jamieson
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To: Yeti
Just for kicks: 100 pounds, .5 inch travel, 5 milli second response (including mass of valve). That's well over 1 horsepower per valve, you ain't going o find one.
56 posted on 04/29/2003 5:01:42 PM PDT by John Jamieson
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To: John Jamieson; dalereed
Well, I couldn't find anything above 80 lbs, but I didn't look too hard, because, as I already said, I don't think they can be found. Dale says that he can get 'em for ten bucks.

Dale ... where?

The industry term for the response time is "operating speed." Be informed that most of the hydraulic control solenoids are pilot-type, so that apparatus will ALWAYS be way too slow since the solenoid acts on a small valve which in turn controls the valve that does the grunt work(no heavy lifting). The solenoids that control them will be too weak, since they don't do the grunt work. I think 0.005s operating speeds exist, but not with any kind of load, and certainly not with significant displacement.

I won't hold it against you if you can't find anything(I don't mind being right ; - ) ), but if you DO fin something, I would really like to know about it, so please ping me.

57 posted on 04/30/2003 4:53:37 PM PDT by Yeti
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To: John Jamieson

Bump for later read


58 posted on 02/10/2005 11:04:15 AM PST by Colorado Doug
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To: John Jamieson

I toyed with the idea of using two of the cylinders as compressors for the others in much the same manner that a gasoline 4-8 cylinder air compressor operates by shutting down the fuel to the center cylinders and porting their output on full-throttle loads to the remaining cylinders with an O2 sensor to provide the extra fuel only at those times.


59 posted on 02/10/2005 11:30:39 AM PST by Old Professer (When the fear of dying no longer obtains no act is unimaginable.)
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To: dalereed

I drag raced a 57 Pontiac that would "float" the valves at 5,000RPM every time; I switched out the valve springs for a set of Ford Interceptor springs for an FE block and wiped out the camshaft in three weeks - didn't "float" the valves until then though and that old POS sounded great at 6500RPM.


60 posted on 02/10/2005 11:38:21 AM PST by Old Professer (When the fear of dying no longer obtains no act is unimaginable.)
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