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Marine Under Investigation in Shooting of Iraqi Soldier
Fort Worth(less) Startlegram ^ | 4/27/03 | AP Story

Posted on 04/27/2003 7:37:18 AM PDT by harpu

Military officials are investigating a Marine who says he shot an Iraqi soldier twice in the back of the head following a grenade attack on his comrades.

The Marine Forces Reserve announced the preliminary inquiry of Gunnery Sgt. Gus Covarrubias on Friday, the day the Las Vegas Review-Journal ran a story in which he described the killing.

Covarrubias, 38, of Las Vegas, said that during an intense battle in Baghdad on April 8, he pursued a member of the Iraqi Republican Guard who had fired a rocket-propelled grenade at his unit. Covarrubias said he received a concussion in the attack and several other Marines also were injured.

Covarrubias, a 20-year Marine veteran, said he found the soldier inside a nearby house with the grenade launcher by his side. Covarrubias said he ordered the man to stop and forced him to turn around.

"I went behind him and shot him in the back of the head. Twice," Covarrubias told the Review-Journal.

He said he also shot the man's partner, who tried to escape. He showed what he said were the men's ID cards.

"I'm not vindictive, and I might get in trouble for telling you this, but I take it very personally when you do that to my family," Covarrubias said. "The Marines are my family."

The Marine Forces Reserve said the preliminary inquiry by the Naval Criminal Investigative Service will determine whether Covarrubias "met the established rules of engagement and complied with the law of war," and whether a formal investigation is warranted.

Calls to Covarrubias' home and knocks at the door went unanswered.

Marine reservist Sgt. Michael Dunn, who fought alongside Covarrubias and was injured in the battle, said he stands by him "100 percent."

"If he wouldn't have done it, those guys probably would've come back and killed or severely injured other Marines," Dunn said. "He did the right thing."


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: grenade; grenadeattack; guscovarrubias; irag; iraqifreedom; marines; republicanguard; rpg; usmc
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To: Polybius
Polybius, even if the reporter accurately reported what the Marine told him (big if), isn't there a difference to the five dead Army POWs shown on al-Jazeera television? In that event, the footage showed them lying sprawled on a concrete floor inside a building, each with a bullet hole in their head and a puddle of blood underneath each one.

That seems to be clear-cut evidence that they were captured (by an overwhelmingly stronger and more numerous force), then transported to the building, where the Iraqis had full control over them, and then shot in cold blood, doesn't it?

By contrast, the Marine was on a lonely search-and-destroy mission in enemy territory. What could he have done with the first Iraqi, the one next to the RPG? Tie his wrists with his shoelaces, then march him back to the Marine position? He would never have gotten past the other Iraqi.

I'm sorry, I don't see the Marine as having control in anything but a technical, legal sense.

P.S. I never served in the military, so maybe I should keep my mouth shut.

161 posted on 04/29/2003 1:58:42 AM PDT by tictoc (On FreeRepublic, discussion is a contact sport.)
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To: tictoc
Cpl. Alvin York managed to move 135 German POWs out of enemy territory to American lines without having to shoot any of them in the back of the head.
162 posted on 04/29/2003 5:17:01 AM PDT by Central_Floridian
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Comment #163 Removed by Moderator

To: umbagi
"The adults are in charge now, boys and girls."

A pleasure to meet your acquaintance, I'm sure!

164 posted on 04/29/2003 7:02:14 AM PDT by Happy2BMe (LIBERTY has arrived in Iraq - Now we can concentrate on HOLLYWEED!)
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To: Polybius
USMC Pub 4.11.8.B won't be a problem here.

War is greasy, grimy, gut-level split-second decision making at it's best.

To enforce the UCMJ and the Articles of War cannot be understated, neither can supporting the incentive and morale of our troops in what is about to be a long, drawn out police action.

We are off on the right foot. This is not going to change that.

Me bet is still with the Gunny. He has a good shot at Sgt. Major.

165 posted on 04/29/2003 7:12:36 AM PDT by Happy2BMe (LIBERTY has arrived in Iraq - Now we can concentrate on HOLLYWEED!)
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To: The Ghost of Richard Nixon
I believe it's wise to decide what to do in a stressful situation before entering it. When someone makes a decision under stress it is often a poor decision, that is why the military develops and practises tactics during peace.
I certainly don't believe in politicaly correct methods of doing things, especialy waging a war, I think it would be perfectly acceptable for our forces to kill imans and mullahs who advocate or support terrorism and I believe the actions of the Marines who shot the "protesters" recently in Baghdad were entirely honorable.
166 posted on 04/29/2003 7:20:05 AM PDT by Central_Floridian
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To: Central_Floridian
"I certainly don't believe in politicaly correct methods of doing things, especialy waging a war, I think it would be perfectly acceptable for our forces to kill imans and mullahs who advocate or support terrorism and I believe the actions of the Marines who shot the "protesters" recently in Baghdad were entirely honorable."

Had we proceeded with the politically correct mindset some are advocating in this thread, we would still be watching Hans Blix tell us Saddam is a good leader on CNN and all of Hollyweed making movies from the West Wing.

Of course you are correct - all those actions have been honorable.

167 posted on 04/29/2003 7:53:21 AM PDT by Happy2BMe (LIBERTY has arrived in Iraq - Now we can concentrate on HOLLYWEED!)
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To: tictoc; Central_Floridian
By contrast, the Marine was on a lonely search-and-destroy mission in enemy territory. What could he have done with the first Iraqi, the one next to the RPG? Tie his wrists with his shoelaces, then march him back to the Marine position? He would never have gotten past the other Iraqi. I'm sorry, I don't see the Marine as having control in anything but a technical, legal sense.

As Central_Floridian pointed out, "Cpl. Alvin York managed to move 135 German POWs out of enemy territory to American lines without having to shoot any of them in the back of the head."

The bottom line is that the LOAC does not recognize and specifically prohibits "Gee, how am I going to get them back" as an excuse to execute a POW.

Remember that the LOAC is there to protect POW's on both sides. What military law says is O.K. for one side then becomes O.K. for the other side.

If you have one side claiming "I shot the (German/North Korean/Iraqi) because I thought there was a second (German/North Korean/Iraqi) in the area", then you have the other side claiming, ""I shot the American because I thought there was a second American in the area".

There is a saying in law: "If law is not on your side, argue the facts. If the facts are not on your side argue the law".

The military law is clear. You cannot execute that POW once he was passively following your orders and under your physical control even if the area was surrounded by an entire Republican Guard Division. Trying to argue at a court-martial that you think the law is (wrong/stupid/not practical) will get you as far as a Democrat claiming that Al Gore is really the President of the United States because they do not agree with the Constitutional law that put George Bush in the White House.

In order to be acquitted, the Marine needs to ensure that it cannot be proved that the Iraqi was passively following his orders and under his physical control. Since physical evidence is most likely not available and there were no witnesses, the only thing that can convict that Marine is his own loose and extremely dumb lips.

If the Marine claims that he exagerated the story, etc., he gives the court-martial some leeway. If he stands by his original story, the court-martial has no choice but to enforce U.S. Military Law.

Telling the Judge, "I'm awfully sorry, Judge, I really believed that she was 18" might get you off the hook.

Telling the Judge, "Yeah, I knew that she was 13 but that law is a stupid law and should not be enforced" will get you convicted.

168 posted on 04/29/2003 8:26:13 AM PDT by Polybius
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To: harpu
Covarrubias said he ordered the man to stop and forced him to turn around.

Here's where he went wrong, obviously. Emotionally, I can understand and sympathize with the response. Intellectually, it sounds a lot like cold blooded murder. I hope they don't make an "example" of this guy.

I'm not sure what people expect - war is hell . . .

169 posted on 04/29/2003 8:32:35 AM PDT by realpatriot71 (legalize freedom!)
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To: Polybius
BUMP
170 posted on 04/29/2003 8:32:37 AM PDT by Publius6961 (Californians are as dumm as a sack of rocks)
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To: Polybius
Thank you for your reply, which is impressively argued.
171 posted on 04/29/2003 9:21:21 AM PDT by tictoc (On FreeRepublic, discussion is a contact sport.)
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To: realpatriot71
We don't have to be demons.
172 posted on 04/29/2003 5:56:28 PM PDT by Central_Floridian
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To: tictoc; Polybius
I wholeheartedly agree, Polybius' debating and writing skills are very good and he is putting them to good use.
173 posted on 04/29/2003 6:00:01 PM PDT by Central_Floridian
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To: Central_Floridian
We don't have to be demons.

I agree, we don't have to be, but I think many are taking this story outside of the context of "the battle field". Until you've seen your friend - the guy who's been covering your ass - hurt or killed, you have no clue how you'd react in that situation. When placed into a situation where one has to literally kill to live, all the pretty little philosophical distinctions go out the window, and the battle stress response takes control. I would personally have a VERY hard time condemning this guy.

174 posted on 04/30/2003 9:52:41 AM PDT by realpatriot71 (legalize freedom!)
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To: Central_Floridian
They enemy does this to us all the time, always have, always will. We are the only country in the world dumb enough to try and fight with ethics involved. Sometimes we hamper ourselves with these ethics because we are dumb enough to believe that the rest of the world thinks the same way as our ivory tower idealists. There is one rule to follow in war and that is all is fair in love and war, cheat, do whatever it takes to kill the enemy while you survive. Unless you have been on the battlefield or you are God you have no right to judge any soldier from any army.
175 posted on 04/30/2003 9:57:45 AM PDT by samuel_adams_us
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To: Central_Floridian
Do you actually believe that they don't commit this attrocities just because some rule book says they shouldn't? Are you really that stupid? My father was on the ground in WWII, they used to kill Japanese in the Pacific when they surrendered just because we didn't have enough men to hold them as prisoners and we needed every fighting man focused on winning the war. Get a clue, buy a vowel, do something.
176 posted on 04/30/2003 10:03:24 AM PDT by samuel_adams_us
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To: samuel_adams_us
No-one who participated on this thread has answered this question, why does someone need to have personal experience of something in order to have an intelligent, correct opinion of it?
If you honestly believe that you cannot understand something until you have done it would you not then accept whatever government officials did since you do not have experience in their positions? Such thinking on the part of US citizens and voters would not benefit our country.
177 posted on 04/30/2003 2:07:08 PM PDT by Central_Floridian
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To: Central_Floridian
If it's acceptable for an US Marine to shoot an Iraqi soldier after he surrendered then it was okay for the Iraqis to kill those US Army soldiers (507th maint. company?)after they surrendered.

I just finished reading "We were soldiers once, and young". It is the story of an early battle in Vietnam, and part of the battle was an ambush of our guys where they were just cut to pieces. As night fell and our guys finally had formed something of a perimeter, they could hear the NV soldiers walking through the tall grass, finding our wounded and shooting them, all the while talking and laughing. And they wouldn't just shoot them in the head and finish them off - they would put the gun in the GI's mouth and pull the trigger.

It's not like I didn't know that happened, but reading about it was still disturbing, and it made me proud to be an American, because, I thought, that's the difference between us and them.

Until I read these threads where freepers cheer because some Marine executed a POW.

178 posted on 04/30/2003 2:30:30 PM PDT by Taliesan
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To: Central_Floridian
Let me flip that argument around a bit. Wouldn't it be better if the policitians were required to live a real life and work a real job so they would understand what we are going through? I think so and that is also why I feel the other way as well. Until you have put on someone else shoes you have know way of knowing why they did what they did when they did it.
179 posted on 04/30/2003 2:42:19 PM PDT by samuel_adams_us
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To: realpatriot71
Until you've seen your friend - the guy who's been covering your ass - hurt or killed, you have no clue how you'd react in that situation. When placed into a situation where one has to literally kill to live, all the pretty little philosophical distinctions go out the window, and the battle stress response takes control. I would personally have a VERY hard time condemning this guy.

Perhaps you have a point about combat stress, and the things people may do when under stress. Perhaps we need to overlook it sometimes when it happens.

Here's the problem. This gunny made that impossible, though, by being so public with what he did. Once something like this gets public, you cannot overlook it, because that would look like condoning it. You have to address it under the laws of war because if you don't, you've now sanctioned future violations of that law. You count on the illegality of such acts to be one factor that restrains people from committing such act, even under combat stresses.

But if you give this guy a public "pass" on this, you've basically given license for guys to commit similar battlefield crimes. You can't do that, so you've got to nail him.

Also, before we give this guy a "pass" for doing this "under stress", it strikes me as rather weird that the guy went public with this, and apparently saw nothing wrong with it. I saw some things that were disturbing in the Gulf War, but I never went blabbing about them. And I know plenty of Vietnam Vets and other people who've seen terrible combat, and they don't go blabbing about it either. That fact that this guy so blithely mentioned it makes me think it wasn't stress or pressure at all.

In fact, the whole "battlefield stress" thing is a red herring. He doesn't claim it was that at all. He just flat-out says it was the right thing to do. That is the type of thing that cannot go unpunished.

180 posted on 04/30/2003 2:59:08 PM PDT by XJarhead
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