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Source: Army secretary resigns on Rumsfeld's demand
CNN.com ^ | 4/25/03

Posted on 04/25/2003 9:39:08 PM PDT by Hipixs

Edited on 04/29/2004 2:02:26 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

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To: nopardons; Amelia; justshe; Fred Mertz; 68skylark; TheConservator; Squantos; Lion Den Dan; ...
One more comment then off to the yard for honey do!

No one has mentioned White backing Shinseki's estiamte on the number of troops needed in the post war Iraq. I would bet my bottom dollar that estimate is low and Rummy will have egg on his face for "pooh poohing" it.
161 posted on 04/26/2003 5:32:36 AM PDT by SLB
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To: Jeff Chandler
>>Name them<<

I am a 100% Rumsfeld supporter.

There is, however, no question that the essence of the "generals at the Pentagon complain that Rumsfeld doesn't listen to them (ignores them, overrules them etc)" line of argument is absolutely true.

There are many such generals at the Pentagon, they are vocal, and they don't like, appreciate, or value the current SecDef.

That doesn't make them right. I am of the view that anyone who got a third or fourth star after 1993 and before 2001 (unless by mistake) is presumptively unfit for command unless proven otherwise. The Fedayeen Clinton are tenacious and resilient, even at the Pentagon (much more so at State and Justice).

But don't attack posters who are contributing their true knowledge of what "the brass" think of Rumsfeld. Their interpretations are wrong, but their facts are not.

162 posted on 04/26/2003 5:36:34 AM PDT by Jim Noble
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To: Hipixs
Talk about a volatile thread! If only the naysayers would produce some facts, we could muster up more than a one-sided debate. Name calling - the well-trodden path in the boring old politics of personal destruction... wake us when it evolves.
163 posted on 04/26/2003 5:38:16 AM PDT by secret garden (Go Spurs Go!)
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To: Hipixs
Time for some of these guys to yell at those kids on their lawns.
164 posted on 04/26/2003 5:39:22 AM PDT by secret garden (Go Spurs Go!)
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To: Jim Noble
Only one man can be in charge, Rumsfeld is that man. The generals always have the option of resigning, taking a good pension, and then if they care to voice their opinions, they may do so.

Far too many perfumed generals of the clinton years are still around.

165 posted on 04/26/2003 5:42:13 AM PDT by cynicom
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To: Fred Mertz
The military don't like and are not used to civilian leaders who take charge and actually run the Pentagon. Rumsfeld is the youngest and oldest SecDef as well as being a former naval aviator. He is not going to take crap from anyone. Go Rummy.
166 posted on 04/26/2003 5:43:19 AM PDT by kabar
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To: PatrioticAmerican
We clobberd an enemy that, for the most part, refused to fight. That is a "brilliant" victory??

Yeah, the boys in Washington did a good job of building Iraq up as some kind of "threat" with WMD's, scuds, and elite military units. It was all a lie and our leaders knew it going in. One of the biggest problems in the whole darn made for TV farse was to keep us from killing ourselves with friendly fire. This was no "brilliant victory". Brilliant PR and propaganda campaign for the sheeple is more like it.

Richard W.

167 posted on 04/26/2003 5:43:23 AM PDT by arete (Greenspan is a ruling class elitist and closet socialist who is destroying the economy)
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To: cynicom
The number of troops is not nearly as important as it used to be. This is not to demean our ground fighters as much as some here would like to think otherwise.

The technology of warfare used to be who had the better gun. Those days are gone.

168 posted on 04/26/2003 5:45:10 AM PDT by sakic
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To: arete; All
I want to make sure that everyone ses your comments above, in which you accuse the entire administration of lying about WMD's and say that the entire operation was a farce.

I will ask you to back this accusation up with facts and explain your motivation in such an attack on the military and the administration.

169 posted on 04/26/2003 5:47:06 AM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: chookter
No. The difference is that Rummy has actually fought in wars and our generals have not. The generals we have now are political animals and Rummy has 'Been there--Done that'. <

You need to check your facts. Does not the record show that the SECDEF was a Navy fighter pilot, but did not serve in combat (post Korean War, I believe)? He is a former member of Congress and serves as a political appointee.

SEC ARMY White served two tours in Vietnam, as did GEN Shinseki (2 Purple Hearts, lost part of one leg), GEN Franks (2 Purple Hearts), etc., etc.

Your arguments may have some merit, but in order to make them, you must retain some credibility - comments like this will cause people to wonder.

My opinion of Rumsfeld is that he is a brillant man who is determined to implement the new defense policy of preemption and to undertake a much needed reform and transformation of the defense department. On these points he is on the mark and will serve our country well.

But, he is also egotistical and arrogant and is carrying out a vendetta against the Army. His views of modern warfare are colored by his experiences as a fighter pilot and like many airmen he overestimates the ability of airpower. He is going to get rid of anyone who disagrees with him, and will never listen to advice from others. If he's right, then we will have a better military. But, if he's wrong, God help us.

170 posted on 04/26/2003 5:48:03 AM PDT by centurion316
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To: centurion316
We could go back to conditions as they were with Jimmy Carter. I prefer not to.
171 posted on 04/26/2003 5:53:14 AM PDT by cynicom
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To: SLB
Thank you for quality contributions. The flush of victory has taken over here and Rummy demurely takes credit (while slyly not taking it) for victory achieved by many.

Since the plan for this war was done and in the hopper for a long time I wonder at the stars in the eyes here regarding Rums-the-brilliant. His part in it was done well but one would think he did it all.

Interesting to have such approval of a single, civilian autocratic bureaucrat as dictator of the military.
172 posted on 04/26/2003 5:54:05 AM PDT by Spirited
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To: chookter
Can you give some idea of what policy and doctrine level problems there are? (I sorta feel like an Al Jazeerra correpondent asking this, btw.)
173 posted on 04/26/2003 5:57:32 AM PDT by bvw
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To: Fred Mertz
His morning meetings are before 7 a.m.

Not only are his meetings at 7, but more interesting are the manner in which they are conducted. In the first few months, the meeting included about 25 of the inner circle in OSD, but Rumsfeld found this to be too big and reduced the size to about 10-15. None of the Service Secretaries or Joint Chiefs are included. No one in uniform attends. Guidance and direction flow downwards from this group. There is no bottom up information flow and any idea not coming from the SECDEF is DOA. OSD spends all of its time reacting to the "snowflakes" that float out of the SECDEFs office. Not good.

Rumsfeld has clearly done a brilliant job on the PR front. The support that he garners from our fellow Freepers is clear evidence that he has been very effective. I doubt that these folks would hold this opinion if they were privy to the inner workings of the Pentagon. We will have to wait for the books to be written, but eventually we will discover that this guy was more like McNamara than anyone would like to think.

Good to see that there are a few others out there who have figured this out, keep up the fire.

174 posted on 04/26/2003 5:58:18 AM PDT by centurion316
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To: centurion316
"He is going to get rid of anyone who disagrees with him, and will never listen to advice from others"

I doubt either of these points of conjecture by you are true. He didn't get to where he is living in a bubble, and it's not how effective executives operate. What I believe is that he demands differing view points are supported with proofs.
175 posted on 04/26/2003 6:00:09 AM PDT by Clean_Sweep
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To: SLB
Your comments are right on the mark and the best I have seen on this subject. I have friends suffering through this both in OSD and in the Army and they echo your views. Keane decided it wasn't worth the grief. My guess is that the next CSA will be Abazaid. Good man, and reportedly he enjoys the SECDEF's confidence. But, his patience, integrity, and fortitude will be sorely testing if he gets the job.
176 posted on 04/26/2003 6:04:19 AM PDT by centurion316
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To: Miss Marple
I will ask you to back this accusation up with facts and explain your motivation in such an attack on the military and the administration.

How about you show me some evidence that anything we heard before the war about how Iraq was a threat to us was true? And that's the point isn't it?

Richard W.

177 posted on 04/26/2003 6:04:32 AM PDT by arete (Greenspan is a ruling class elitist and closet socialist who is destroying the economy)
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To: centurion316
As a common low life with the military and the federal government, I never served in any position in which there was not "ONE" person in charge. Management by "committee" has never worked and never will.

That is why we have a president that runs the country. Rumsfeld runs DOD, the generals work for him. If Rumsfeld screws up, it will be him that hangs, not the generals.

Robert MacNamara rightfully took the fall for the Vietnam fiasco, not the generals that were yes men.

178 posted on 04/26/2003 6:11:35 AM PDT by cynicom
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To: Clean_Sweep
B-Schools will tell you that effective executives listen to subordinates, empower people, and build strong, cohesive teams. However, not all effective executives fit this model. Some are brillant, driven, and absolutely convinced that they know more than anyone surrounding them. When these people are successful, their views are reinforced and their behavior becomes more strident. Men like this have changed the course of history, made billions for themselves and their companies, and led nations to greatness. That happens when they are right. When they are wrong, the outcome is less positive.

Rumsfeld is such a man. Time will tell if he is right or he is wrong.
179 posted on 04/26/2003 6:13:44 AM PDT by centurion316
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To: centurion316
What I find interesting, perhaps ominous in light of this discussion, is the portion of the DoD transformation legislation that will allow general officers to serve longer terms of service.

Imagine a highly politicized general officer corps (redundant, no?) that effectively serves as if appointed for life a la federal judgeships. Imagine the next Slickmeister coming in a installing a cadre of G.O.s over the course of an eight year term. Would a successive administration have to purge G.O.s? At what political cost?

Frankly, I admire the current turmoil -- the Army will emerge changed and stronger in the end. And civilian control of the military is bedrock principle of our society.

Perhaps the next Secretary of the Army will focus on the strategic purpose of the Army, not operational abilities.

Wouldn't it be unique to have a Secretary that looks at our human resources as a life-cycle model? How do we influence the next generation to enlist? How are we caring for our current stock? How have we cared for our veterans and retirees (Shouldn't this be the realm for service secretaries; should we really have to palm it off to Veteran's Affairs?).

And wouldn't it be nice to finally get out of competition with the Marine Corps for being an expeditionary force? It's hard to find common consensus across this county as to what the purpose of the Army is (vis-a-vis USMC, other services).

The nation's defense elites wonder: what is the purpose of an Army? We need a Secretary that can tell them, tell us, and tell Americans what this Army is, and why it endures as the nation endures.

Imagine what the last two years would have been like if White was SecDef, and Rumsfeld was SecArmy...

180 posted on 04/26/2003 6:21:13 AM PDT by ReaganCowboy
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