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My goodness. Y'all certainly got a lot of mileage out of one little word. Just because I've referred to human capacities as "gifts", is really not a warrant to suppose I think--or that there is--a gift giver. One could, and many have, of course, made the same argument regarding the "gift" of Newtons 1st law, without which said operating, spear-chucking would a a pretty darn haphazard undertaking. Natural laws don't necessarily imply a lawgiver, just as natural gifts don't necessarily imply a giftgiver. You are antropomorphising the universe without sufficient compelling evidence to overcome the skepticism of the unpursuaded, or, at least me.

I consider this a misuse of logic sometimes called "swapping the domain of discourse" by metamathematicians, and manifested as what more traditional logicians called the "fallacy of the excluded middle".

Natural laws don't necessarily imply a lawgiver, just as natural gifts don't necessarily imply a giftgiver. You are antropomorphising the universe without sufficient compelling evidence to overcome the skepticism of the unpursuaded, or, at least me.

Looks like it would have been more intellectually honest just to say that you made a mistake in your choice of words.

It's not our job to overcome anyone's skepticism, only to attest to what we know (including of course the meanings of the word "know" which "objectivists" deny).

You may steer your own way.

LOLOL! That’s what happens when you leave a door open. Seriously, as much as I'm interested in this conversation, I'll be out of town from tomorrow morning till next Wednesday, so I'll just "sum up" my view and say adios!

You are antropomorphising the universe without sufficient compelling evidence to overcome the skepticism of the unpursuaded, or, at least me.

IMHO, this conversation has always centered on faith. Morality looks entirely different to an atheist. And it appears you are in the agnostic corner because you are unpersuaded and skeptic and continue to challenge us believers to prove to you that God is and perhaps, who He is – and to justify to you the prior actions of the Catholic church.

As long as you retain such prejudice and skepticism, there is no way I can convince you of anything, and I don't think anyone else here could convince you either.

Only the Holy Spirit can convict someone (which usually results in bringing one to his knees) --– and He doesn’t convict just anybody:

And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God. – John 8:45-47

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. – Romans 8:28-30

Truly, donh, I don’t know if you don’t have ‘ears to hear’ or whether you do hear but are being defiant. Either way, all I can do to help you is to pray for you and to love you – both of which I gladly do. So until next time, adios!