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To: donh; betty boop; Alamo-Girl
What is your proof that guilt did not arise from natural causes? I've seen my dog clearly suffering remorse, and I've seen elephants weep when they've inadvertantly hurt one of their fellows.

Somehow I missed this yesterday at this time. Please pardon the old world "theological lecture." The evidence of a moral impulse in animals (or ESP in dogs) is not evidence of natural cause. Of course that takes us back to creation vs. minds and hearts from nothing. Man is created in the image of God in order to relate to Him, maintaining many essential characteristics of God in much limited form. Man is to relate with animal life too, also for God's good pleasure. I think much of that has to do with training children to be parents, much of it also has to do with God loving a fruitful creation, and much has turned out to be about sustenance.

It naturally follows that animals have a reduced kind of soul and even spirit. Living, breathing animals have animal souls and spirits as surely as they live and breathe. (It may be drudgery to you to see this, but that is mentioned in the... Bible -- with a kind of "apology," it's just that a-lot of stuff is referred to in there, interstingly enough.)

Once again I'm pinging betty boop, this time because in time past she has pointed out the difference between man and animal as speaking of man's spiritual nature. Truly so, but it's also proper to say that the similarities are indicative too (and of course every bit of creation is indicative of the Creator to those willing to see without the veil). Also pinging Alamo-Girl due to her interest too in conscience and conscious, and in the aforementioned doggie book.

Does that sound a little animistic? Well we don't call them animals for nothing, I think. Also, bb & A-G, I tend to think it may just be that Satan had a hand in what became of creation too, do you too? But that's further off topic, especially for an "objectivist."

1,155 posted on 04/30/2003 3:46:46 PM PDT by unspun (It's not about you.)
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To: unspun
It naturally follows that animals have a reduced kind of soul and even spirit.

So you acknowedge that animals have somewhat similar emotional and mental natures to ours? Just rather less well developed? If this is going to degenerate into a creationist thread, I'm outta here. Basically, you wish to exclude my claim that morals could have arisen in nature by claiming they don't. I'm not significantly moved from my previous position by claims not founded on reasoning from the available evidence.

1,163 posted on 04/30/2003 4:57:30 PM PDT by donh
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To: unspun
Somehow I missed this yesterday at this time. Please pardon the old world "theological lecture." The evidence of a moral impulse in animals (or ESP in dogs) is not evidence of natural cause.

It most certainly is. Whether it persuades you or not is a different question. ESP in dogs, indeed. Can I interest you in some UFO sightings?

1,186 posted on 04/30/2003 10:45:25 PM PDT by donh
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To: unspun
, I tend to think it may just be that Satan had a hand in what became of creation too, do you too?

Now that's an interesting speculation. What evidence do you have that Satan isn't, in fact, the promulgator of the whole christian shebang, commissioned the bible, filled it with satan supporting rules, falsely claimed God's authorship, and has God hogtied in the basement? Do you have some evidence that this can't be true? Is your evidence, by any chance, based on the value to humans of God's Law?

1,192 posted on 04/30/2003 11:54:00 PM PDT by donh
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