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Pope puts pressure on US
Guardian ^ | 4/21/03 | Owen Bowcott

Posted on 04/21/2003 1:33:09 AM PDT by kattracks

The Pope sent a coded rebuke to Washington yesterday when he urged Iraqis to take charge of rebuilding their country while working closely with the international community.

In the Vatican's diplomatic lexicon, the phrase "international community" normally refers to the UN. Before the conflict started, Pope John Paul II vigorously opposed the US-led assault and advocated resolution of the crisis in the UN general assembly.

"With the support of the international community," the 82-year-old pontiff declared in his 25th Easter message, "may the Iraqi people become the protagonists of their collective rebuilding of their country." The speech appeared aimed at putting pressure on Washington and London to involve the UN more closely in political reconstruction in Iraq and to speed up the handover to civilian rule.

In the months before the fighting, the Pope conducted a series of high-profile diplomatic initiatives, sending envoys to George Bush and Saddam Hussein and holding talks with Iraq's deputy prime minister, Tariq Aziz, and with Tony Blair.

More recently, the Vatican has offered to help coordinate humanitarian aid through its embassy and dioceses.

Easter Sunday sermons from other Christian leaders also examined the war in Iraq, with the Archbishop of York, Dr David Hope, calling on the international community to join forces to build the country's civil and democratic society.

He said: "Quite frankly, despite all the promises ... how things currently are in Kabul and Afghanistan post-war does not bode well as to how things might be in Baghdad and Iraq."

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, said in his homily that the desire to cling on to comfortable ways of thinking had characterised the moral debate over the conflict in Iraq.

The Archbishop of Westminster, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, leader of Roman Catholics in England and Wales, urged the faithful to pray for all victims of the conflict.



TOPICS: Front Page News; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; iraqifreedom; michaeldobbs; rowanwilliams; thepope
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To: LuisBasco
Again, before you reheat the casserole of lies originally foisted upon us by the Associated Press which also did not use actual quotes, please provide the olrecise quotes from John Paul II that justify your claims. Place them in complete context and give us a source.
141 posted on 04/22/2003 11:49:55 AM PDT by BlackElk (Viva Cristo Rey! Ubi Petrus Ibi Ecclesia (Where Peter Is, There is the Church!))
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To: showme_the_Glory
Please demonstrate with accurate citations exactly WHERE the Pope "does not support" the US's effort.
142 posted on 04/22/2003 11:52:42 AM PDT by ninenot
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To: BlackElk
Inner Slobbovia, Outer Slobbovia

At Yale they taught Li'l Abner Geography???

143 posted on 04/22/2003 11:55:06 AM PDT by ninenot
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To: geedee
Sodamn Insane is or was a murderous thug and jerk. Having gotten that technical matter taken care of, lest I forget, are you standing by the notion that Sodamn Insane is worse than Mao Tse-Tung, as one post WW II example among many and not just one more murderous thug?

Indeed do you think that even Hitler (11 million killed) was in the same league with Mao (75 million killed)? If so, and if those are examples of your credentials to engage in discussions of foreign policy and what the pope ought or ought not to be doing, assuming as I do not that you have a clue as to what he is doing, which you do not, why would anyone particularly care what you think?

Somewhere previously you expressed doubt that anything you post would change my mind. On the one hand: The Roman Catholic Church and Pope John Paul II. OTOH: The unknown poster who is scribbling graffiti on the Vatican wall. No brainer! You are at least right that you aren't going to change my mind.

144 posted on 04/22/2003 11:59:41 AM PDT by BlackElk (Viva Cristo Rey! Ubi Petrus Ibi Ecclesia (Where Peter Is, There is the Church!))
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To: ninenot
Hey, what about Lorna Doone and Brigadoon to go with Cameroon? These are actually the inspirations of the late great cartoonist Jeff McNelly.

BTW, Al Capp was a friend of mine. He came originally from New Haven. I used to drive him around from Boston to New York from time to time and I enjoyed his hospitality and common sense.

145 posted on 04/22/2003 12:02:26 PM PDT by BlackElk (Viva Cristo Rey! Ubi Petrus Ibi Ecclesia (Where Peter Is, There is the Church!))
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To: The Red Zone
The RCC really has few 'hots' for the UN--however, the UN is NOT the same as the USA. We are obviously a 'party at interest' and the Pope may just think it's more prudent for us to disappear as soon as possible from Iraq, leaving an 'uninterested party' to help. That would be the UN...

Again, the Pope's interest is in making it CLEAR that this is not a Christian VS. Moslem deal...
146 posted on 04/22/2003 12:02:33 PM PDT by ninenot
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To: BlackElk
I see the Jack Chick crowd is out in force today, eh?

Great rebuttal, BTW!

147 posted on 04/22/2003 12:20:54 PM PDT by B Knotts
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To: BlackElk
Nothing funnier than a pissed off and pious punk. Keep ranting. Make a bigger fool out of yourself. Go, man, go!
148 posted on 04/22/2003 2:17:59 PM PDT by geedee
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To: BlackElk
Dominus vobiscum.

You're tagging the wrong Catholic.

I have been a traditional Catholic since the Vatican II Council and am unhappy with the way the current pope has squandered his papacy.

What II did was to throw out the baby with the bathwater and relegate the Roman Catholic Church into the same abyss we find the rest of the disjointed Christian churches. Rome should have led instead of capitulating.

Insofar as the American Catholic Church is concerned, there have been feeble attempts by Rome to roll back, or suggest, that some of the changes made in America should be negated. None were.

The bishops thumbed their nose at Rome and ran off in the direction of polka masses, balloon masses, clown masses, altar girls, dipping the host in the communion wine etc.

Surely, any Catholic worth his salt would see that the church has declined and needs to be resurrected!

149 posted on 04/22/2003 2:23:31 PM PDT by LuisBasco
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To: kattracks
The Pope sent a coded rebuke to Washington yesterday when he urged Iraqis to take charge of rebuilding their country while working closely with the international community.

Where was the Pope and the international community when they really needed them? It's so easy for theses armchair quarterbacks to be telling us what we need to be doing... after we've ridded the world and the Iraqi people of Hussein.

150 posted on 04/22/2003 2:24:26 PM PDT by AlGone2001 (If liberals must lie to advance their agenda, why is liberalism good for me?)
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To: The Red Zone
Anyone who says this has no idea what Luther or any other Protestant taught.

Which includes about 99.9999999% of the neo-Christians on this thread.

151 posted on 04/22/2003 2:28:28 PM PDT by conservonator (ok, maybe 99%)
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To: hobbes1
It was inspiring. My son, a jr. at IA State, has spent this last semester in Spain studing. He had the opportunity to spend this last week in Rome. He got a ticket to the Pope's Easter Mass. As luck would have it he got to the very front of the church, he was about 20 feet from the Pope during the mass. He did say that the Pope was incredibly old looking and very frail but was still inspirational.
152 posted on 04/22/2003 2:49:12 PM PDT by shadowboxer
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To: geedee
Alot of the things the Holy Father is saying are being taken way out of context.

Personally this war rings a bit hollow to me. Our track record doesn't indicate that we've been too concerned about the murder of innocents around the world.

And you were right about this country not listening to the Pope about the war. We also did not listen to him regarding abortion. 40 million plus innocents have been legally killed in this country, with the blessing of the government.

I'm no fan of the UN either. I don't believe the Vatican has a permanent seat on the UN, but I think the US does. That's another thing I don't understand, why do we play the UN game sometimes, and sometimes not? I think we should either get in or get out. I think get out is the best thing.

153 posted on 04/22/2003 4:58:44 PM PDT by Cap'n Crunch
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To: BlackElk
Hello General!

This is an ugly little thread isn't it? I see alot of the usual suspects are here too.

Lorraine Boettner LOL...snort.

154 posted on 04/22/2003 5:01:56 PM PDT by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Personally this war rings a bit hollow to me. Our track record doesn't indicate that we've been too concerned about the murder of innocents around the world. And you were right about this country not listening to the Pope about the war. We also did not listen to him regarding abortion. 40 million plus innocents have been legally killed in this country, with the blessing of the government.

I don't disagree with anything you said. My ONLY comment was that those anti-war folks who used as their reasoning that so many "innocents" would be killed or hurt weren't taking into account the hundreds of thousands who had ALREADY been killed or hurt.

If you're right and the Pope's comments were taken out of context, perhaps he doesn't belong in that category. But I stand by my comment that all those who used the innocent casualties argument to justify their anti-war positions were misguided at best and disingenuous at worst -- whether it be the Pope, or a Tibetan Monk, or a Hollyweird Celebrity. And my comment could apply to anyone -- it just so happened this thread was about the Pope.

I have no anti-Pope tendencies or beliefs, in spite of what others are trying to imply. I purposefully stay out of religious-based arguments because I'm not educated enough about most of them to carry on a debate and religion inspires so much passion from folks that you'd best be ready to rumble when you enter the religious arena.

It just riles me when ANYONE is REPORTED to claim that this war is/was immoral, illegal, or unjust.

I would add a "tiny" disclaimer to your comment about "innocents around the world." While I agree with the gist of your comment, I sincerely believe GW was and is concerned about the Iraqi innocents. He's spoken about this both before and during the war. But, in general, you're probably right.

155 posted on 04/22/2003 5:25:13 PM PDT by geedee
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To: geedee
I think one of the problems with these posts is that some folks come out of the woodwork and use them as an excuse to smear the Pope and the Church with alot of nasty comments.

It's especially frustrating when the Pope's comments have been taken way out of context by the media who would love nothing better than to further damage the Church.

I'm sure President Bush is very concerned about the innocent victims of this war, he seems to me to be a decent, sincere man.

It's just my opinion but I think we should have had UN backing before we went in. Though I'm also of the opinion that alot of Nations in the UN have their own little agendas and are not playing above board.

I don't believe Nations like Russia or China will ever be our ally, maybe it's all smiles at UN meetings but behind the scenes I think it's all cloak and dagger and we should get out.

My 2 cents.

156 posted on 04/22/2003 5:48:50 PM PDT by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Cap'n Crunch
It's just my opinion but I think we should have had UN backing before we went in.

We would have never gone in. Saddam would have continued to play rope-a-dope until the Euroweenies at the UN gave in, relaxed sanctions, and allowed him and his foul offspring to play in his private torture chamber and WMD lab until long after this particular Pope had passed on.

We gave the UN an opportunity to show what it is made of. It proved it was made of day-old mush.

157 posted on 04/22/2003 5:55:29 PM PDT by Kevin Curry
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To: Cap'n Crunch
It's just my opinion but I think we should have had UN backing before we went in.

Ssshhh. This will really get you bombarded. LOL.

This is where we disagree. When France says they're going to veto ANY resolution that authorizes force and when Libya and Iraq and Syria are allowed to head committees dealing with human rights and disarmament and the like then, in my book, the UN has no moral standing to bless anything.

This UN madness had nothing to do with Iraq . . . it was all just weenie-wagging contests between those who talk the talk like 800# gorillas yet walk the walk like the last kid picked in dodgeball -- which is what France is on the world stage -- and the world's ONLY REAL 800# gorilla -- the U.S. France is in a steep and steady decline and the only noise they can make that'll be heard by anyone other than themselves is their whining on the UN stage.

158 posted on 04/22/2003 6:05:16 PM PDT by geedee (We Americans... bear the ark of liberties of the world.)
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To: Cap'n Crunch
It's just my opinion but I think we should have had UN backing before we went in

Why would you want the backing of a socialist, anti-American organization?

159 posted on 04/22/2003 6:12:13 PM PDT by Mr. Mojo
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To: geedee; Kevin Curry
Unfortunately, I think events of the last 50 years have led us to some problems. I don't think we should have ever got in the UN, now the UN is too big for it's britches and we have to deal with them.

It's a mess. I don't see how we are now in a much better position than before we went into Iraq. Iraq seems to be doing better, for the moment, but I believe the rest of the world has a dimmer outlook on us. I certainly don't think that terrorist attacks against us are going to stop because we ousted Saddam.

President Bush said it may take 20 years to rid the world of terrorism. He will probably only be in office 6 more max. Who knows what the next President will do. I mean, we had 8 years of Slick Willie.

160 posted on 04/22/2003 6:14:51 PM PDT by Cap'n Crunch
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