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Will democracy fly?: It is not our business to impose a system of government in Iraq
OcRegister.com ^ | 4/20/03 | STEVEN GREENHUT

Posted on 04/20/2003 11:25:37 PM PDT by Hoppean

Following my recent anti-war columns, a few readers have asked this legitimate question: How does the United States government promote democracy and freedom in places such as Iraq, where dictators abuse their people and run things with an iron fist?

A similar question plagued America's sixth president, John Quincy Adams.

In an 1821 address, he, the secretary of state at the time, responded to critics who had asked, "What has America done for the benefit of mankind?"

"Wherever the standard of freedom and independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy." Adams made a philosophical argument, emphasizing that "America's glory is not dominion, but liberty," but he made a practical argument as well.

"She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force ..."

Who can argue with that wisdom? Yet America is inextricably involved in every hot spot everywhere. All our involvements use the standard of freedom, but end up being about force.

Consider the situation in Bosnia, which has faded from public view since Bill Clinton's nation-building experiment there. The American overseer there once bragged about his dictatorial powers, which have been used to disqualify candidates for office the U.S. government doesn't like. Democracy? No. Force? Certainly. My guess is that Iraq will devolve into a similar situation, especially if the Shiite-majority Iraqi population wants to elect a radical cleric as president.

During war, people cede power to the central government so that it can "protect" them. Citizens who could once be counted on to oppose excessive government power, liberty-sapping regulations and obscene levels of taxation have grown quiet, preferring instead to cheer on a foreign war.

No one doubted that the United States forces would, at some point sooner or later, roll over the Iraqi forces. But already the best-laid plans to impose a democratic society on a fractious Third World country that has never known democracy are providing signs of trouble. First there was the looting, which American forces did nothing to stop, even allowing destruction of priceless antiquities. "No to America, No to Saddam," chanted as many as 20,000 Iraqis protesting U.S.-sponsored talks in Nassiriya designed to start rebuilding civil government, according to Reuters reports last week.

On April 10, two clerics were hacked to death by an angry mob during what the United States had hoped to be a highly publicized session of peace and reconciliation. Other reports point to the emergence of radical Islamic clerics in the wake of the breakdown of civil order, and abuses against Arabs by U.S. allies, the Kurds.

Yet some war whoopers are eager to take the war to Syria now. At some point, even the most ardent war supporters have to realize that the United States treasury isn't a bottomless pit. Some war supporters argue that "we" should be willing to pay any price for Iraqi freedom.

I'll suggest to them the same thing that I suggest to liberals who argue that "we" should pay any price to eliminate poverty or "save" the environment: The government always fails at such broad-based endeavors, and it always costs a fortune. How about war supporters agree to, say, a $500 a month federal surcharge to pay for Iraqi democracy? Can't put a price on freedom, can we?

Imposing democracy on a people from the top down perhaps has worked a time or two under certain unusual circumstances, but it's not the model (and it isn't "worth it" if your family is collateral damage). There will, of course, be exceptions to this non-interventionist rule, but the burden of proof ought to be on those who propose the use of military force not on those of us who say, "slow down a minute."

Sure, most Iraqis are probably thrilled at the end of a vicious totalitarian regime. No doubt, there were torture chambers and death squads and all the other nasty stuff that goes along with a government run by thugs constrained by nothing but their own whims.

Remember, though, this war wasn't originally justified as a crusade to liberate Iraq from its oppressors. It was launched as a pre-emptive action to stop a "Hitlerian" madman from launching strikes on the United States. So far no weapons of mass destruction have been found, and the quick crumbling of the regime (without the use of WMDs, even in its last gasps of power) suggests that the Hitler analogy was overblown.

So, the rationale has shifted to democratization. Doug Bandow, the Cato Institute senior fellow and foreign policy expert, notes the "the hilarious emergence of conservatives as Wilsonians." Remember, the right has traditionally promoted foreign wars only in service of national interests, whereas the left has promoted so-called humanitarian wars - i.e., democracy-building, nation-building and the like.

Bandow points to a few problems with this Democracy at Gunpoint. First, there is an easy list of 30 or 40 nations that are run by brutal despots. In the Congo, for instance, 3 million people have been slaughtered over the last decade.

This leads to the real question: "What is your criterion? If we go everywhere, it will take an imperial presence."

A fascinating article in the May issue of Reason magazine chronicled the downfall of totalitarianism in the Czech Republic, with an emphasis on the brave actions of Vaclav Havel, the writer who later became the country's president. Admittedly, Havel became a supporter of U.S. war in Iraq, but his own country escaped its shackle because he and other dissidents stood up to the regime.

In Cuba this month, that country's dictator stepped up a reign of terror against dissidents who were brave enough to call for reforms despite the consequences. Some 11,000 Cubans - an amazing number, given the repercussions - signed a petition calling for an opening of the communist state.

Even in a dreadful, totalitarian state, freedom must be essentially home grown, flowing from the bottom up.

Can Americans publicize another government's evils? Can our government exert pressure on those countries? Can we admonish liberals such as Jimmy Carter who visit totalitarian states and make apologies for dictators?

Yes, yes and yes.

But should we send the Marines hither and yon, imposing "freedom" at gunpoint? Well, we certainly are trying. But it would be far better for freedom - ours and everyone else's - if America followed the words of Adams and served as "the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all [but] the champion and vindicator only of her own."


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: democracy; freedom; iraq; iraqifreedom; postwariraq; war; wilsonian
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But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy." Adams made a philosophical argument, emphasizing that "America's glory is not dominion, but liberty," but he made a practical argument as well.

"She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force ..."

1 posted on 04/20/2003 11:25:37 PM PDT by Hoppean
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To: Hoppean
Utter horse$hit. Yeah, Iraqis would've - no should've in your opinion, been left to deal with Saddam's regime on their own? 24 years of that resulted in how many of them being executed, tortured, and raped?

Go and read my post from earlier tonight - For the Children. It is directed at you and those who think as you do.
2 posted on 04/20/2003 11:53:27 PM PDT by 11B3 (Happiness IS a warm gun. After a long day's use.)
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To: Hoppean
We didn't have to go "abroad" to find the monsters. The monsters came to us. We are now chasing them down abroad.

As far as "Its is not our business...". We spent our blood on taking out one monster. That makes it our business to follow through and try to make sure that blood has some long term value. We forced democracy on Japan and others after winning that war. It was clearly in our interest to do so.
3 posted on 04/20/2003 11:54:05 PM PDT by DB (©)
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To: Hoppean
This isn't the early 19th century, we aren't taking over Iraq for the long haul, and the author of this assinine tripe is worse than foolish. Isolationists should all go off somewhere and see how long they can remain out of the march of history's way in this century. LOL
4 posted on 04/20/2003 11:58:26 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: Hoppean
Another bunch of words chasing a moronic premise.

Any form of government should be left alone provided that:
It does not reward criminal behavior in another government.
It does not create equip maintain and finance a surrogate army of terrorists to wage surrogate war.

If Canada did those things against my country I would feel justified in attacking them tomorrow.

I always get confused... it that a red herring or a straw man?

5 posted on 04/20/2003 11:59:55 PM PDT by Publius6961 (Californians are as dumm as a sack of rocks)
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To: Hoppean
I heard an Iraqi woman say that the leftists who claim that the people of Iraq cannot handle democracy are simply racists.
6 posted on 04/21/2003 12:00:09 AM PDT by Eva
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To: Hoppean
When will people like this realize WE ARE NOT TAKING OVER IRAQ?! We are freeing it for the Iraqis to take over. This is not, nor has it ever been, a war of congress. Anyone too stupid not to see that has no credibility with me.
7 posted on 04/21/2003 12:03:09 AM PDT by CaptainJustice (Dangerous Jesus Lover)
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To: Hoppean
WE're not imperialists and we're not dictating a government to the Iraqi people. We're simply establishing transitional arrangements to allow them to choose their own government at the earliest possible opportunity. If we wanted to run Iraq as an American colony, we could but we are deliberately refraining from doing so. John Adams would marvel at our forebearance. We destroyed a danger to the United States and the only example we offer is liberty. Let the Iraq people decide their own future.
8 posted on 04/21/2003 12:23:34 AM PDT by goldstategop ( In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: Hoppean
The writer gives it a nice try, but fails in many respects.

First, he forgot the life and times of JQA. A vulnerable nation, with a form of government still in its infancy, can ill-afford to "go abroad in search of monsters to destroy." In 1821, were Americans still heady from victory 50 years previous, ready to go out and 'kick butt and take names in the name of liberty?' Maybe, and maybe he was telling them to cool it. But today, when they not only rattle their sabers at us, but fly planes into civilian targets, and aim chemical and biological weapons at us, if we have the means then we have the responsibility to bring them down.

Second, admirable that Havel and so many dissidents toppled a regime in Czechoslovakia. And 20,000 names on a petition in Cuba -- wow. And how many years did it take the citizens of these countries to get to this point? At this rate, how long will it take for inner topplings of regimes in countries of their ilk to take place?

The troops did nothing to stop the looting? Wow, I guess I was dreaming the footage I saw of soldiers desperately screaming at looters, to no avail, because the looters didn't understand English, or pretended they didn't, and the soldiers could not fire at them.

Too many apples and oranges being compared here. But like I said, he gives it a good try.
9 posted on 04/21/2003 1:43:31 AM PDT by TrebleRebel
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To: TrebleRebel
The press has a real opportunity here to educate the world on why America has been so successful as a country, and why theocracies and socialist countries always fail.

Do you suppose we will hear any of that on the evening news?

10 posted on 04/21/2003 5:26:52 AM PDT by snopercod
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To: snopercod
The socialists in Congress want to try a failed experiment here. Some people can never get their heads around the existence of a stubborn thing called reality.
11 posted on 04/21/2003 5:28:23 AM PDT by goldstategop ( In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: snopercod
I doubt it, because the press and the media is too consumed with patronizing self-loathing to ever concede that the US is indeed a successful nation.
12 posted on 04/21/2003 5:51:02 AM PDT by TrebleRebel
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To: 11B3
Go and read my post from earlier tonight - For the Children. It is directed at you and those who think as you do.

I looked at your post, and saw the pics of the Iraqi children waving American flags, etc. What's the title of the next article in this series, "It Takes a Village?"

If you're going to justify the war on Iraq, at least do so in the name of America--tell me that it protects this country from WMD that Saddam plotted to give to terrorists--I am much more sympathetic to that reason than if you tell me we did it for charity for the Iraqis.

To tell the truth, I don't care about the Iraqi children because they're not Americans and they're not my responsibility. I don't think the Iraqis or any other denizens of other countries are worth a drop of American blood. And just to be evenhanded, we shouldn't have ever helped the French, either, as a lot of FReepers have recently come to see what they're all about. If everybody is your brother, then you have no brother.

As far as spending tax dollars, I don't even buy the argument at home in America that the liberals make that government welfare programs are "for the children." Let the parents pay for them themselves. How many socialist policies have been put in place in this country under the slogan, "it's for the children?"

13 posted on 04/21/2003 9:21:04 AM PDT by Hoppean
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To: goldstategop
Yeah right. Why have we not even allowed the Iraqis to establish an interim coalitoin government? They have tried to do it for months. We wouldn't want our little brown brothers to actually have their own government, especially if we haven't "approved" it would we? After all, they're not "ready" yet.
14 posted on 04/21/2003 9:26:10 AM PDT by Captain Kirk
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To: Captain Kirk
We wouldn't want our little brown brothers to actually have their own government, especially if we haven't "approved" it would we? After all, they're not "ready" yet.

If they're going to start killing each other, or establish an Islamist state to wage jihad on the west, then, no, they're not ready yet.

15 posted on 04/21/2003 9:34:56 AM PDT by sinkspur
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To: Hoppean
If you're going to justify the war on Iraq, at least do so in the name of America--tell me that it protects this country from WMD that Saddam plotted to give to terrorists--I am much more sympathetic to that reason than if you tell me we did it for charity for the Iraqis.

In case you haven't bothered to figure this out, interventions in the affairs of other countries to promote your own self interests go much better if you are also aiding the self interests of that country's citizens. So our need to eliminate Saddam's ability to provide funding and weapons to terrorist groups dovetails nicely with ending repression in that country. It isn't an either/or situation.

16 posted on 04/21/2003 9:39:45 AM PDT by dirtboy (The White House can have my DNA when they pry it from my ... eh, never mind, let's not go there...)
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To: Captain Kirk
Why have we not even allowed the Iraqis to establish an interim coalitoin government? They have tried to do it for months.

Another whine to add to the pile of non-serious statments accumulating under the chins of the critics. "YOU HAVEN'T FOUND WMDS! YOU ALLOWED LOOOTING! WHY ISN'T A GOVERNMENT FORMED YET!" "ARE WE THERE YET? ARE WE THERE YET?"

It's absolutely amazing that the folks uttering this stuff believe that any thinking person is impressed by it.

17 posted on 04/21/2003 9:42:33 AM PDT by dirtboy (The White House can have my DNA when they pry it from my ... eh, never mind, let's not go there...)
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To: dirtboy
Brilliant response dirtboy. Do you have a rational argument or do you just like to rant?
18 posted on 04/21/2003 10:40:58 AM PDT by Captain Kirk
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To: sinkspur
Thank you sinkspur! You admit that they are second class citizens and that we really don't want to give them self-government. If only most of the Wilsonian freepers on this thread were as honest as you are. I appreciate your brutal honesty.
19 posted on 04/21/2003 10:42:28 AM PDT by Captain Kirk
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To: Captain Kirk
Brilliant response dirtboy. Do you have a rational argument or do you just like to rant?

That's pretty funny, coming from someone who is whining about the fact that there isn't an interim government set up yet, even though hostilities have been over for less than two weeks. I guess you're impressed with yourself, but that's about as far as it goes...

20 posted on 04/21/2003 10:46:20 AM PDT by dirtboy (The White House can have my DNA when they pry it from my ... eh, never mind, let's not go there...)
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