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1 posted on 04/18/2003 6:53:53 AM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: *dixie_list; annyokie; SCDogPapa; thatdewd; canalabamian; Sparta; treesdream; sc-rms; Tax-chick; ...
bump
2 posted on 04/18/2003 6:55:30 AM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: stainlessbanner
Prepare for Confederate-bashing Walt to make an appearance and enlighten you to the evils of the Confederacy.
3 posted on 04/18/2003 6:59:53 AM PDT by Pern
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To: stainlessbanner; yankhater
ping
5 posted on 04/18/2003 7:03:17 AM PDT by sultan88 ("He didn’t see the station wagon car, the skunk got squashed and there you are ")
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To: stainlessbanner
It is nonsense that there were blacks in the Confederate army. Such was specifically prohibited by CSA law until March 1865. Sure, a slave here or there, in the first monnth or so could have accompanied his master to war, and even been stupid enough to shoot at U. S. troops. The only two regiments of blacks soldiers raised for the rebellion were in Louisiana in 1861. The rebels refused to accept them, whereupon they enlisted in the U. S. Army under Ben Butler.

BTW, under Confederate rule, for the "crime" of possessing a U. S. flag, John Masters would have been hanged.

6 posted on 04/18/2003 7:05:17 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: stainlessbanner
Thank you for the article.
7 posted on 04/18/2003 7:05:54 AM PDT by let us cross over the river
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To: stainlessbanner
There were never 70,000 African-Americans who served. They were never even able to get one battalion of negro soldiers together.

The bill was hotly debated in the rebel "congress" for a couple of months, with filibuster threats, etc., before it was finally passed. By the time it got through, and the decrepit rebel "military" bureaucrats got things in order the war was over.
8 posted on 04/18/2003 7:09:55 AM PDT by Illbay
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To: stainlessbanner
The first Memorial Day was for Confederates. It was shortly after the War of Nothern Aggression some yankee woman came by and noticed the people honoring the graves of those killed at Petersburg, VA during the seige. She thought it was a good idea and took it back up to the yankees.
11 posted on 04/18/2003 7:12:41 AM PDT by putupon (I smack Chirac and Robbins too w/ my shoe.)
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To: stainlessbanner
What?! Black Confederates?! That can't be! Everyone knows the war was fought over slavery! How dare you challenge everything I ever learned about American history in publik skool!
12 posted on 04/18/2003 7:16:57 AM PDT by sheltonmac
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To: stainlessbanner; All
too bad hypocritical yankees don't have the cajones to read this book
32 posted on 04/18/2003 8:02:36 AM PDT by putupon (I smack Chirac and Robbins too w/ my shoe.)
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To: stainlessbanner
This reminds me of a song I heard a few times back in the late 60's-early 70's, performed by an east coast guitar & banjo duo called the Dornan Brothers. Jeff, Mark, are either of you Freepers?

I can only remember bits and pieces of it; here's a little:

(chorus)
He was the symbol
of those before the gun,
who died for what they thought was right
in eighteen sixty one...(Johnny Rebel)

He left his home in Georgia, his wife and children three,
he left them all behind him to fight with General Lee..

(chorus)

(memory gap)

They buried Johnny's body 'neath the weeping willow tree
but his story still lives on in the land of liberty...
because...

He was the symbol of those before the gun
who died for what they thought was right
in eighteen sixty one.
33 posted on 04/18/2003 8:08:34 AM PDT by JimRed (Disinformation is the leftist's and enemy's friend; consider the source before believing.)
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To: stainlessbanner
Thanks for the article. I'm sure it will re-kindle the usual internecine hostilities here at FR. The real truth of the Civil War was whispered in the dying breaths of those who fell on both sides and the innocents caught in the middle. No one answer seems to be completely accurate the further we get from the actual events. Everyone has their own agenda. My personal feelings are with those who are buried under neat rows of headstones or in single unmarked shallow graves all over the countryside. The foundation stones and crumbling chimney of my great grandfather's home and the big ancient oak tree he was hung from by marauding jayhawkers speak to me of those terrible times better than any movie or article. Leave it alone.
34 posted on 04/18/2003 8:09:06 AM PDT by Lee Heggy (Tastes like chicken.)
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To: stainlessbanner
"Most black Confederates worked as cooks, drivers or musicians, but at least 18,000 served as combat troops, Masters said. "Black people don't want to believe that, but it's true," he said. "Nobody wanted to be a slave, but this was their home and the North was an aggressor nation."

Truth be told, that final part pretty much described a huge majority of the white Confederate soldiers, too, as the troops were mostly made up of folks who NEVER owned slaves...MUD

43 posted on 04/18/2003 8:36:13 AM PDT by Mudboy Slim (DemonRATS continue to Defend the Indefensibile and Assail the Unassailable!!)
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To: stainlessbanner
Anyone interested on the topic, I would send to their inter-library loan department and pick up the book "Black Confederates and Afro-Yankees."

It's an exhaustive academic work (dull read) story on the black experience during the Civil War in Virginia.

Virginia held the most slaves at the start of the war, and also the second largest number of free blacks after Maryland.

The conclusion of the book was that it was a complex story looking at many extant records such as diaries and battle reports.

The author's conclusions were that most slaves in Virginia took neither side. Many took the northern side and ran away, spied for the north or joined the northern army. Fewer did just the opposite and spied for the Confederate armies, or returned to their homes when they were offered a chance to leave.

The free blacks (50,000 if I remmeber right?) were even more interesting. Many volunteered for the Confederate armies, mostly being redirected to support services. Thousands served as cooks and teamsters. Many bought Confederate bonds supporting the CSA government that way. Many others joined the army as fighters seemingly without permission to do so. It seems that Stonewall Jackson's corps had a don't ask don't tell policy on the matter. There are just too many reports from battlefields to discount, from the Yankee letters home talking about a sniper they shot out of a tree in the Peninsula campaign who turned out to be black, to citizen letters in Fredrick Maryland talking about armed black Confederate troops marching mixed with the other troops.

Anyway, the number 70,000 to me would have to include the teamsters (which there were thousands of for an army the size of Lee's), but I think there's little doubt that there were black Confederate soldiers of some number.
44 posted on 04/18/2003 8:36:46 AM PDT by Beernoser
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To: stainlessbanner
Wonder what the pc crowd will make of this? Paul Begala of course, claims the CSA Battle Flag is a symbol of racism, the freakin moron.

Good story, thanks!

Anyone ever visit www.dixieoutfitters.com

They have some cool shirts I want...In particular, they have a particularly mean NB Forrest one and a John S. Mosby one that are very cool tributes to these guys.
57 posted on 04/18/2003 12:31:35 PM PDT by jonalvy44
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To: stainlessbanner
Slavery was a terrible thing and we all still suffer from that today. My concernis for history and heritage. It is my understanding that the Confederate States of America offered emancipation for fighting AND had an emancipation proclamation to be signed but wasn't as they were defeated.
97 posted on 04/19/2003 8:30:23 AM PDT by Henchman
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To: stainlessbanner
Okay - let me get this straight! The blacks hate the Confederates, but they are going to "celebrate" the war dead because they're black ...?? Did I get that right ..??

Somebody needs to explain this to me ... because it is totally illogical.
129 posted on 04/19/2003 3:07:26 PM PDT by CyberAnt ( America - You Are The Greatest!!)
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To: stainlessbanner
Most Civil War histories usually ignore the more than 70,000 African-Americans who served with Confederate armies.

Fiction.

There is no credible proof that more than a handful of blacks fought for the CSA.

Consider:

FRIDAY, February 10, 1865.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

SECOND CONGRESS-SECOND SESSION

EMPLOYMENT OF NEGROES AS SOLDIERS

Mr. Wickham, of Virginia, moved the indefinite postponement of the bill. He was opposed to its going to a select committee. If it went to any committee it should go, in the regular channel, to the Committee on Military Affairs. He wished, however, this question of arming and making soldiers of negroes to be now disposed of, finally and forever. He wished it to be decided whether negroes are to be placed upon an equality by the side of our brave soldiers. They would be compelled to. They would have to camp and bivouac together.

Mr. Wickham said that our brave soldiers, who have fought so long and nobly, would not stand to be thus placed side by side with negro soldiers. He was opposed to such a measure. The day that such a bill passed Congress sounds the death knell of this Confederacy. The very moment an order goes forth from the War Department authorizing the arming and organizing of negro soldiers there was an eternal end to this struggle.-(Voice-That's so.)

The question being ordered upon the rejection of the bill, it was lost-ayes 21, noes 53. As this vote was regarded as a kind of test of the sense of the House upon the policy of putting negroes into the army, we append the ayes and noes-the question being the rejection of this bill authorizing the employment of negroes as soldiers:

Ayes-Messrs. Baldwin, Branch, Cruikshank, De Jarnette, Fuller, Garland, Gholson, Gilmer, Lamkin, J. M. Leach, J. T. Leach, McMullin, Miles, Miller, Ramsey, Sexton, Smith, of Alabama, Smith, of North Carolina, Wickham, Witherspoon, Mr. Speaker.

Noes-Messrs. Akin, Anderson, Barksdale, Batson, Bell, Blandford, Boyce, Bradley, H. W. Bruce, Carroll, Chambers, Chilton, Clark, Clopton, Cluskey, Conrad, Conrow, Darden, Dickinson, Dupre, Ewing, Farrow, Foster, Funsten, Gaither, Goode, Gray, Hartridge, Hatcher, Hilton, Holder, Holliday, Johnston, Keeble, Lyon, Pugh, Read, Rogers, Russell, Simpson, J. M. Smith, W. E. Smith, Snead, Swan, Triplett, Villere, Welsh.

If any number of black soldiers had been serving in the ranks of the CSA armies, how did it escape the notice of Congress?

It also escaped the notice of Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee and others:

Page 246, Confederate Veteran, June 1915. Official publication of the United Confederate Veteran, United Daughters of the Confederacy, Sons of Confederate Veterans, and the Confederated Southern Memorial Association.

Gen. Howell Cobb, an unbeliever in this expedient, wrote from Macon, Ga., January 8, 1865: "I think that the proposition is the most pernicious idea that has been suggested since the war began. You cannot make soldiers of slaves or slaves of soldiers. The moment you resort to this your white soldiers are lost to you, and one reason why this proposition is received with favor by some portions of the army is because they hope that when the negro comes in they can retire. You cannot keep white and black troops together, and you cannot trust negroes alone. They won't make soldiers, as they are wanting in every qualification necessary to make one. :

Samuel Clayton, Esq., of Cuthbert, Ga., wrote on January 10, 1865: "All of our male population between sixteen and sixty is in the army. We cannot get men from any other source; they must come from our slaves... The government takes all of our men and exposes them to death. Why can't they take our property? He who values his property more than independence is a poor, sordid wretch."

General Lee, who clearly saw the inevitable unless his forces were strengthened, wrote on January 11, 1865: "I should prefer to rely on our white population; but in view of the preparation of our enemy it is our duty to provide for a continuous war, which, I fear, we cannot accomplish with our present resources. It is the avowed intention of the enemy to convert the ablebodied negro into soldiers and emancipate all. His progress will thus add to his numbers and at the same time destroy slavery in a most pernicious manner to the welfare of our people. Whatever may be the effect of our employing negro troops, it cannot be as mischievous as this. If it ends in subverting slavery, it will be accomplished by ourselves, and we can devise the means of alleviating the evil consequences to both races. I think, therefore, that we must decide whether slavery shall be extinguished by our enemies and the slaves used against us or use them ourselves at the risk of the effects which may be produced upon our soldiers' social institutions. My own opinion is that we should employ tl1em without delay. I believe that with proper regulations they can be made efficient soldiers. They possess the physical qualifications in an eminent degree. Long habits of obedience and subordination, coupled with the moral influence which in our country the white man possesses over the black, furnish an excellent foundation for that discipline which is the best guarantee of military efficiency. We can give them an interest by allowing immediate freedom to all who enlist and freedom at the end of the war to their families. We should not expect slaves to fight for prospective freedom when they can secure it at once by going to the enemy, in whose service they will incur no greater risk than in ours. In conclusion, I can only say that whatever is to be done must be attended to at once."

President Davis on February 21, 1865 expressed himself as follows: "It is now becoming daily more evident to all reflecting persons that we are reduced to choosing whether the negroes shall fight for or against us and that all the arguments as to the positive advantage or disadvantage of employing them are beside the question, which is simply one of relative advantage between having their fighting element in our ranks or those of the enemy."

Would Lee and Davis have had those points of view had there been any number of blacks in ranks?

There is no -credible- evidence of blacks in active rebel service.

"It's pure fantasy,' contends James McPherson, a Princeton historian and one of the nation's leading Civil War scholars. Adds Edwin Bearss, historian emeritus at the National Park Service: 'It's b.s., wishful thinking.' Robert Krick, author of 10 books on the Confederacy, has studied the records of 150,000 Southern soldiers and found fewer than a dozen were black. 'Of course, if I documented 12, someone would start adding zeros,' he says.

"These and other scholars say claims about black rebels derive from unreliable anecdotes, a blurring of soldiers and laborers, and the rapid spread on the Internet of what Mr. McPherson calls 'pseudohistory.' Thousands of blacks did accompany rebel troops -- as servants, cooks, teamsters and musicians. Most were slaves who served involuntarily; until the final days of the war, the Confederacy staunchly refused to enlist black soldiers.

"Some blacks carried guns for their masters and wore spare or cast-off uniforms, which may help explain eyewitness accounts of blacks units. But any blacks who actually fought did so unofficially, either out of personal loyalty or self-defense, many historians say.

"They also bristle at what they see as the disingenuous twist on political correctness fueling the black Confederate fad. 'It's a search for a multicultural Confederacy, a desperate desire to feel better about your ancestors,' says Leslie Rowland, a University of Maryland historian. 'If you suggest that some blacks supported the South, then you can deny that the Confederacy was about slavery and white supremacy.'

"David Blight, an Amherst College historian, likens the trend to bygone notions about happy plantation darkies.' Confederate groups invited devoted ex-slaves to reunions and even won Senate approval in 1923 for a "mammy" monument in Washington (it was never built). Black Confederates, Mr. Blight says, are a new and more palatable way to 'legitimize the Confederacy.'"

-- Wall Street Journal, May 8, 1997

AND:

"There seems to be no evidence that the Negro soldiers authorized by the Confederate Government (March 13, 1865) ever went into battle. This gives rise to the question as to whether or not any Negroes ever fought in the Confederate ranks. It is possible that some of the free Negro companies organized in Louisiana and Tennessee in the early part of the war took part in local engagements; but evidence seems to the contrary. (Authors note: If they did, their action was not authorized by the Confederate Government.) A company of "Creoles," some of whom had Negro blood, may have been accepted in the Confederate service at Mobile. Secretary Seddon conditioned his authorization of the acceptance of the company on the ability of those "Creoles" to be naturally and properly distinguished from Negroes. If persons with Negro Blood served in Confederate ranks as full-fledged soldiers, the per cent of Negro blood was sufficiently low for them to pass as whites."

(Authors note: Henry Clay Warmoth said that many Louisiana mulattoes were in Confederate service but they were "not registered as Negroes." War Politics and Reconstruction, p. 56) p. 160-61, SOUTHERN NEGROES, Wiley

There is -no- credible evidence that even a small number blacks served as soldiers in the rebel armies.

Walt

171 posted on 04/21/2003 5:54:33 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Be copy now to men of grosser blood and teach them how to war!)
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To: stainlessbanner; All
He believes the Lee and Jackson monuments should be toppled "just like the statue of Saddam in Baghdad."
196 posted on 04/21/2003 8:29:39 AM PDT by putupon (I smack Chirac and Schroeder too with my right shoe.)
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To: stainlessbanner
Bump
221 posted on 04/21/2003 10:19:02 AM PDT by Fiddlstix
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