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Why a Museum?
Wall Street Journal ^ | April 18, 2003 | ERIC GIBSON

Posted on 04/18/2003 5:48:26 AM PDT by knuthom

Edited on 04/23/2004 12:05:30 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

We shouldn't have been surprised that, after the looting of Baghdad's antiquities museum last weekend, negligent Americans, not the looters themselves, got most of the blame. For much of the media, every bad thing since the invasion has been America's fault. So adding another charge to the indictment was an easy call.


(Excerpt) Read more at opinionjournal.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: iraq; looting; museum; trofimov; war; warlist
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To: Fifth Business
"...we could have secured the museum and prevented the looting that followed our arrival."

According to reports, our troops were taking fire from the museum, but were under orders not to respond so as not to endanger the museum's contents.

It would appear that our forces were indeed sensitive to the issue, but found themselves in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

21 posted on 04/18/2003 10:04:49 PM PDT by okie01 (The Mainstream Media: IGNORANCE ON PARADE.)
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To: Fifth Business
Interesting somewhat analogous story about how the famous hand-wringing leftist George S. Patton rescued a bunch of horses:

"In April 1945, the heroic efforts of the 42nd Squadron of the United States Army's 2nd Cavalry were responsible for the rescue and ultimate preservation of the Lipizzans. The rescue of the horses was conducted under the orders of General George S. Patton and was carried out under the direct command of Colonel Charles H. Reed. ...

... While the stallions were sheltered at St. Martin's, the mares and foals had been separated from the stallions and were being held at the German Remount Depot in Hostau, Czechoslovakia. American forces became aware of their location through Colonel Reed. On April 26, 42nd Squadron captured a German general and his staff near Hostau. Reed and the General dined together and developed a friendship. The General showed Reed photographs of the Lipizzaner horses. When questioned further, the General confessed that the horses were being held at the German Remount Depot along with allied prisoners of war who cared for the horses. Later that day Reed contacted Patton to ask permission to attack Hostau to liberate the prisoners and horses. Permission was granted. ...

... The Americans found at Hostau a population of some 150 Lipizzans, including a few stallions, mares and their colts of two and three years of age. The first day was spent inspecting the horses. Two days later, German SS troops organized a counter attack on the 42nd Squadron as it moved eastward along the Czechoslovakian border. The Germans were driven off and a week later, the war had ended."

Story

Apparently they made a Disney movie about this.

22 posted on 04/18/2003 10:48:13 PM PDT by wideminded
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To: ckilmer
At source #2, I came across this:

In recent decades, scholars of early Islamic history have realized that linguistic research can explain much of the mysteries surrounding the early development of Arab-Islamic civilization.

Christoph Luxenberg, a scholar of Semitic languages in Germany, has argued the term houri, which medieval Muslim scholars of the Quran took to mean young virginal maidens, could derive from an Aramaic word for white raisins.

Does that the martyrs who were expecting 72 virgins should have been expecting 72 raisins instead? This could reduce the number of homicide bombers considerably.

23 posted on 04/19/2003 3:20:14 AM PDT by knuthom
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To: Fifth Business; PhilDragoo; FairOpinion; BOBTHENAILER; Grampa Dave; Howlin
That's right. Let's castigate the U.S. for "letting" this happen--did you bother to even read any of the links I provided? Like, for instance, the one that said the museum had probably been looted long before the war started?

Several points:

1. WE did not loot the museum. The Iraqis did, and won't they be surprised when they try to sell it on the black market and discover most of it was fake. Serves them right.

2. When it comes to setting priorities, which should rank first? Guarding a museum, OR saving lives and liberating a country (including a large number of children released from Iraqi prisons)? The thing is, our troops were never meant to be museum rent-a-cops. Let them do what they were trained to do. Returning to my earlier point, if the Iraqis involved had half an ounce of honor, this conversation wouldn't even be necessary.

3. Again, according to articles linked above and elsewhere, the U.S. knew that most of the important items were already gone, replaced by replicas--why waste manpower and lives on saving fakes?

Anyone who would choose guarding a museum over saving lives and liberating a country is a danged fool. I'm just stunned that there are so many of them.


24 posted on 04/19/2003 7:15:43 AM PDT by MizSterious ("The truth takes only seconds to tell."--Jack Straw)
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To: optik_b; BOBTHENAILER
Go back to DU or your loser third party.

Your reply shows the mentality of the losers of America!

You clowns need a new mantra. However, keep posting this trash that has been repudiated by the sane people.
25 posted on 04/19/2003 7:26:06 AM PDT by Grampa Dave (Being a Monthly Donor to Free Republic is the Right Thing to do!)
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To: MizSterious; PhilDragoo; BOBTHENAILER; Ernest_at_the_Beach
Thanks for your excellent summary of previous threads.

It is obvious those who hate GW on the left and so called far right are working this losing mantra re the looting of the museum 24/7.

Whenever they try to run this POS up their flag pole, they show how much they hate GW and will say or post anything to try and harm him.
26 posted on 04/19/2003 7:29:08 AM PDT by Grampa Dave (Being a Monthly Donor to Free Republic is the Right Thing to do!)
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To: PhilDragoo
This whole charade of looting the Museum was probably created by the maggots in charge of the NY Slime. Then they contacted the so called think tanks of the left and so called far right. They said run with this story.

It is like the GW has no Gravitas BS that Rush caught both sides at the time GW was sworn in.
27 posted on 04/19/2003 7:31:44 AM PDT by Grampa Dave (Being a Monthly Donor to Free Republic is the Right Thing to do!)
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To: just mimi
and a retraction of his criticism.

IMO, Bill-O is totally incapable of such a thing.

28 posted on 04/19/2003 7:35:18 AM PDT by ErnBatavia (Bumperootus!)
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And here's another group of likely perps: 42 Iraqi paintings seized in Jordan:

"The paintings were taken earlier in the week at al-Karameh border post from unidentified journalists entering Jordan from Iraq and were sent to the main Customs Department in Amman, said the officials, well-informed on the confiscated items. The paintings were being verified for authenticity but that preliminary checks led to them to believe the material had been looted from Iraq, the officials said on condition of anonymity. "

Seems we have to hear this from the India Times--guess the U.S. media is far too busy pointing the looting finger at the coalition military.

29 posted on 04/19/2003 7:44:44 AM PDT by MizSterious ("The truth takes only seconds to tell."--Jack Straw)
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To: ricpic
they wouldn't know a Babylonion cultural artifact from an Assyrian or even an Egyptian if you stuck it up THEIR wazoo.

I don't think I have the finer detection skills needed to distinguish an Assyrian artifact from an Egytpian artifact if it is in my wazoo.

30 posted on 04/19/2003 7:52:36 AM PDT by HairOfTheDog (Not all those who wander are lost.)
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To: HairOfTheDog
ROFLOL!!
31 posted on 04/19/2003 8:11:03 AM PDT by 2Jedismom ('The commitment of our fathers is now the calling of our time')
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To: 2Jedismom
;~D
32 posted on 04/19/2003 8:12:48 AM PDT by HairOfTheDog (Not all those who wander are lost.)
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To: MizSterious
did you bother to even read any of the links I provided?

Yes, I've been following this quite closely.

Like, for instance, the one that said the museum had probably been looted long before the war started?

We know there was pilfering before the war started. We also know there was looting after our troops arrived. What was destroyed or removed prior to our arrival may never be known because we failed to secure the museum. Had we secured it, we would be able to quantify what was lost before we arrived.

WE did not loot the museum. The Iraqis did,...

Yes, but it was predictable (see my prior post) and preventable had we secured it.

When it comes to setting priorities, which should rank first? Guarding a museum, OR saving lives and liberating a country (including a large number of children released from Iraqi prisons)? The thing is, our troops were never meant to be museum rent-a-cops. Let them do what they were trained to do.

You are posing a false dichotomy. There is no reason we could not have done both. We secured the Oil Ministry upon our arrival in Baghdad. So, using your words, we were "rent-a-cops" when we wanted to be so.

Again, according to articles linked above and elsewhere, the U.S. knew that most of the important items were already gone, replaced by replicas--why waste manpower and lives on saving fakes?

Do you really believe an archive of over 100,000 cuneiform tablets which haven't even been photographed or translated were replaced with fakes? Of course not. Only those items of singular value would have been replaced with replicas. You are talking about a small percentage of the entire collection. It's true we don't have the overall loss quantified, so it is hard to speak in the abstract. But reports of crushed tablets littered on the floor indicate there was genuine loss from the looting that followed our arrival.

33 posted on 04/19/2003 8:24:55 AM PDT by Fifth Business
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To: MizSterious
Anyone who would choose guarding a museum over saving lives and liberating a country is a danged fool. I'm just stunned that there are so many of them.

If every artifact in the museum were destroyed, it would not change the past at all. If one life was destroyed protecting them, it would change the future for at least one person. The people who want to protect the past are not putting their futures on the line. There is no choice.

34 posted on 04/19/2003 8:35:23 AM PDT by Krodg (We have the ability because the leader in command knows who's in control....God Bless America.)
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To: Fifth Business; Grampa Dave
And you, FB, must be a war strategist almost as famous and astute as Sean Penn, Janeanne Garafolo, and Natalie Maines. I'm sure that if we ever have to do this again, someone from the Pentagon will contact you for advice on how to do it.
35 posted on 04/19/2003 8:38:08 AM PDT by MizSterious ("The truth takes only seconds to tell."--Jack Straw)
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To: Krodg; MizSterious; BOBTHENAILER; Ernest_at_the_Beach; PhilDragoo; colorado tanker
K posted, If every artifact in the museum were destroyed, it would not change the past at all. If one life was destroyed protecting them, it would change the future for at least one person. The people who want to protect the past are not putting their futures on the line. There is no choice.

Amen! There was not a damn thing in that Museum that was worth a single American Life. Of course the left wing whackos and so called right wing whackos hate our service men. They would have been happy if thousands of our service men had died protecting the so call artifacts.

36 posted on 04/19/2003 8:42:44 AM PDT by Grampa Dave (Being a Monthly Donor to Free Republic is the Right Thing to do!)
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To: MizSterious
And you, FB, must be a war strategist almost as famous and astute as Sean Penn, Janeanne Garafolo, and Natalie Maines. I'm sure that if we ever have to do this again, someone from the Pentagon will contact you for advice on how to do it.

Did you have anything thoughtful to say in response to my post?

37 posted on 04/19/2003 8:43:26 AM PDT by Fifth Business
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To: Krodg
Krodg, you said it! Now, if others here would just think about that for just a moment or two, maybe they'd come to their senses.

If every artifact in the museum were destroyed, it would not change the past at all. If one life was destroyed protecting them, it would change the future for at least one person. The people who want to protect the past are not putting their futures on the line. There is no choice.

Just in case anyone missed it...

38 posted on 04/19/2003 8:47:17 AM PDT by MizSterious ("The truth takes only seconds to tell."--Jack Straw)
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To: knuthom
any professional with common sense would have put the valuables in safe keeping at the first hint of war.

the american media is rife with articles blaming america for the loss.
39 posted on 04/19/2003 8:47:21 AM PDT by liberalnot
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To: Fifth Business
Speak of the moderns without contempt, and of the ancients without idolatry.

Philip Stanhope, Earl of Chesterfield

40 posted on 04/19/2003 8:48:02 AM PDT by mewzilla
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