"I found hundreds of sites slandering Billy Graham as well as the LDS" ~ crz
It appears that you think that I said something that "slanders" the LDS.
If you're saying I'm lying about what they believe about Jesus, it is you who are slandering me.
I am NOT lying about what they believe about Jesus.
The onus is on you to provide the proof that I am lying about it.
That should be EASY, right? Then provide it, and stop changing the subject by attacking me (or the other person on this thread whom who call "my partner", but whom I don't even know).
When you resort to personal attacks, the intellectually honest see that you have already lost your argument. The opinions of the others don't count.
Simply amazing. You sir are the one who attacked me. You sir are the one who confronted me first. You sir, if you claim to be who you are, owe me an apology.
Methodists, indeed any church, should be free to engage in political activities...but not with a tax exemption. This church needs to be audited for compliance with the "no politics" rules for their tax exemption.
No church should be prevented from speaking on any matter, political or otherwise. Nor should its tax-exempt status depend on this. It never did before until relatively recently when, for political purposes, churches were throttled by making their ab initio tax exemption depend on keeping quiet about political matters. Le[earn] a bit more history on the subject, because in this area your net value is zero.
Lest anyone should think I was way out of bounds with my final sentence and consider it to be a personal comment or a flame or a personal put-down when, as he may think, all we have is a difference of opinion:
No, I made no personal put-down, attack, or flame. Nor is our difference merely one of opinion. A difference of opinion is merely a difference in tastes--you like expresso roast, I prefer Ethiopian Sidamo--but a difference in matters of fact requires that someone be closer or farther from the truth. I described the content value of your observation in the historical context.
Tax exempt status of churches antedated Lyndon Johnson's successful attack on the First Amendment in 1954 when he introduced a bill requiring that all non-profit organizations refrain from "political speech" to maintain their tax-exempt status. It passed without debate. This was the beginning of the rape of the First Amendment. The recent campaign finance "reform" laws continued the assault. Of course, Johnson's action, like the more recent ones, was simply a politician using the power of government to protect his own personal interests. After his reelection it was discovered that he had done this to shut down a couple of non-profit, anti-communist Texas organizations that were opposing his primary re-election bid.
The sneaky thing in all this is the twisted logic used when folks claim that tax-exemption constitutes a funding of the organization and that whoever does the funding, the government in this case, should control the speech, "Hey, you want to say whatever you want to? Then give up your tax-exempt status." But church tax-exempt status doesn't originate in laws controlling not-for-profit organizations but came from the First Amendment. It was
later that tax-exempt status was extended to non-church-related not-for-profit organizations; at first, in addition to churches, tax-exemption was enjoyed by "charitable" organizations that provided service to the poor or relief of poverty. Church organizations usually provided these services. Tax-exempt status was gradually extended to organizations said to be providing a "benefit" to the community.
But church tax-exempt status antedates all this as well as all the laws that were created to define and to govern not-for-profit organizations. Church tax-exempt status is
not a creature of these regulations. It exists apart from them in the understanding that the First Amendment prohibition on Congress giving special treatment to one church over others also meant that Congress couldn't screw over one church over others and that the prohibition on Congress with regard to establishments of religion meant that it could neither levy taxes on churches nor prohibit their freedom of practice (which included their freedom of speech).
The attitude referenced above also assumes that free speech is something that one is granted by the government in exchange for the payment of taxes. This has
never been the case. Freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and freedom of the church, together with the consent of the governed, have been seen as the necessary conditions, not for a "democratic government", but for a free society. The government exists only for the purpose of protecting that society and for ensuring its continued freedom. This is why the current campaign finance reform laws and why Johnson's sneak attack on the Constitution are literally an assault on that society whose liberty the government was instituted to protect.
Your take on the situation appeared to be in ignorance of its historical background. Because the tax-exempt status of churches antedated Johnson's conflating them with other non-profit organizations and because they, as any other organization, profit (as in newspapers) or non-profit (voluntary social action groups), had, ab initio, a First Amendment right to freedom of speech, your suggestion that they could say anything they wanted if they gave up their tax-exempt status was without either historical or Constitutional foundation. As such, it had a net value of zero.
Sorry my friend, IMHO, Hagee DOES NOT belong in that crowd. If you disagree, I will agree to disagree with you.
Snooter ;o)
"Sorry my friend, IMHO, Hagee DOES NOT belong in that crowd. If you disagree, I will agree to disagree with you." ~ snooter55
Agreement or disagreement with facts changes them?
On google, type in: Word of Faith Movement John Hagee and see how many hundreds and hundreds of hits you get.
Is it logical to your mind that if one believes and/or teaches the doctrines of the WOF Movement, then that means that such a person "belongs in that crowd", as you put it?
If you are one of those who says, "I have seen the truth and it makes no sense to me", then what I'm posting below will still make no difference to you. You will be showing yourself to be of the illogical opinion that your *disagreement* with the facts actually changes them.
Hagee agrees on the following WOF heretical doctrines (I am not citing all WOF doctrines, just some major points of error):
Spiritual Law
Positive Confession
Divine Healing
The Atonement
Financial Prosperity
Demonology
Infamous Quotes
Spiritual Law -
God and His creation operate according to spiritual laws. These laws cannot be violated and when properly used these spiritual laws will always produce the desired results.
"We must understand that there are laws governing every single thing in existence. Nothing is by accident. There are laws of the world of the spirit, and there are laws of the world of the natural. .We need to realize that the spiritual world and its laws are more powerful than the physical world and its laws. Spiritual law gave birth to physical law. . .God a Spirit, created all matter. . . with the force of faith." The Laws of Prosperity" pg. 15
Positive Confession -
God creates by confessing what He wants. We are created in His image, thus we too have the ability to release faith-filled words and thus create what we need in life. Spiritual law generally works by confessing properly what you need. If you need physical healing you confess passages of text on prosperity. The "spiritual law" is simple (1) believe in your heart, (2) confess it with your mouth, and (3) believe you have it and you will {read Mark 11:23-24}.
"Even though God had the image inside Him and the Spirit of God was there to cause it to come to pass, it had to be released out of His mouth before any changes could take place. . .God used His words to bring the image into manifestation. He filled His words with the spiritual force of faith." "God's Image of You" Charles Capps, pg. 48
"So if we decree or affirm unwaveringly, steadfastly, we hold God by His own unalterable laws to do the establishing or fulfilling. . ." Lessons", Cady, pg. 52
Every WOF teacher has written books dealing with positive confession, which is why the WOF movement became known as "the Positive Confession Movement" or "name it and claim it." The above list of people sincerely believe we create our own realities by what we say.
God's Will Is Always Healing -
It is not God's will for any of His children to be sick. It is His will for all of them to be healed when (if) they do get sick. This heresy has probably caused more pain, suffering, and guilt than almost any other lie that WOF promotes. Many of the WOF ministers have had bouts with serious illness and have had to resort to using (gasp) doctors and medicine. Oral Roberts, had the lack of faith to start a medical school. Charles Capps wife suffered with cancer and was treated for it. Fred Price's wife was treated for cancer. R.W. Schambach has had heart by-pass surgery, etc. Yet, to a person, they will tell you that it is God's will to always heal the believer. Dr. Hobart Freeman taught that using doctors was a sin, as a result over 50 people died in his church, and later he himself died of a treatable ailment. Now there is a big push on diet, vitamins, herbs, and exercise among charismatic ministers (they are growing older now). Dr. Cherry is a medical doctor who has a show on TBN and many follow his medical advice . . .yet it is still God's will to always heal.
Jesus Died Spiritually -
I dealt with this heresy in another section, please press the button to go there (). In all fairness some WOF ministers have broken ranks and come to a more orthodox view. I have e-mailed several of the "biggies" recently and I am waiting to hear their response regarding the atonement.
Financial Prosperity -
Not only does God want you well, He wants you wealthy! The majority of the people in the ICBM leadership are millionaires or multimillionaires. Tracy and I attended a small WOF church on Detroit's east-side. Our congregation had at most 300 poor inner-city people (children included). Yet the Pastor made over $60,000.00 per year and was provided a Cadillac, Lincoln Town car, Pontiac Bonneville SSE, and lastly a fully maxed-out Conversion Van. Why? Because God's people are to (1) eat the best, (2) wear the best, and (3) drive the best. Paul Crouch holds a "Praise-A-Thon" and tens of millions will be raised in a matter of days.
"Good news to the poor is: You don't have to be poor anymore." Authority In Three Worlds", Charles Capps, pg. 21
The way to enter into financial prosperity is by giving! We were told we did not give to get, yet it was a spiritual law and when we gave it would be given back to us in greater measure. WOF churches all operate on the tithing principle of 10% of the paycheck (preferably the gross amount) was to be given each and every payday. On top of the 10% we were to give offerings. Being faithful in doing this meant that God would: (1) open the windows of heavens for us, (2) He would pour out an overflowing blessing on us, (3) He would rebuke the devourer for our sakes, (4) and our endeavors would not fail to bear good fruit (see Mal. chapter 3). The bottom line is this- tithing does not exist as a New Testament doctrine or practice. It is legalism and often abusive and manipulative. Every WOF minister has also written about and taught on financial prosperity. Most of the people teach that: (1) poverty is a curse, (2) Jesus was wealthy, (3) financial prosperity is part of the atonement, (4) you have a right to be rich, and (5) you will get rich by sowing into my (fill in the blank) ministry.
Demons -
One thing we Charismaniacs know about is the Devil and his demons! We have scores of books on the devil, various ministers have seen demons (Kenneth Hagin, Norval Hayes, Robert Tilton, Lester Sumrall, Howard Pittman, etc.). Some have tapes of demons speaking (sometimes all you need to do is simply turn on TBN). Our job is to enforce Satan's defeat. Jesus has given His authority over Satan to the Church and it is up to us to use His name, His blood, His armor and conquer Satan and his forces. Most problems are relegated to satanic influence (sickness, poverty, disease, strife, and society-at-large). Prophetic Movement teachers (Myles Monroe, Earl Paulk, Rick Joyner, Paul Cain) teach that the problems in the world are the result of the Church not exercising her authority over Satan and his demons. Hagin and Summral both have written extensively on demons and spiritual warfare. There are now congregations that are known for their spiritual warfare (our former congregation was once such church). There is an emphasis on warfare praise, warfare prayer, prayer walks, fasting for spiritual power over principalities and powers. Jubilee Christian Church, got so far off into this they even had warfare dancing and a warfare clap.
All of the WOF ministers and ICBM supporters believe a Christian can be (1) demon possessed and or (2) demon oppressed. They agree that by the laying-on-of-hands demons are to be cast out. They agree you have to fast for some demons to leave a person. Just about everyone who does not agree with them and their doctrines has a religious spirit.
Infamous Quotes From Three of the Biggies
Word of Faith Sayings
Compiled by Jim Fox (Last updated 23/6/92)
This is a synopsis of statements made by the major Word Faith teachers; after each statement, you will find the source material listed so that you can read or hear the exact quote for yourself. It has been my intent to paraphrase these teachers as exactly as possible for the purpose of allowing you, the reader, to get an overview if you will of the Word Faith movement.
KENNETH COPELAND
Faith is a Force (Spirit, Soul and Body, #01-0601, Tape #1)
God did not create the world out of nothing, He used the Force of His Faith. (Spirit, Soul and Body, #01-0601, Tape #1)
Earth is a copy of the mother planet (Heaven).
God's reason for creating Adam was to reproduce Himself. (Following the Faith of Abraham, Tape #01-3001)
Adam was not subordinate to God. (Following the Faith of Abraham, Tape #01-3001)
God and Adam looked exactly alike. (The Authority of the Believer IV; Tape #01-0304)
Jesus and Adam looked, acted, and sounded exactly alike.
All of God's attributes and abilities were invested in Adam. (The Authority of the Believer IV; Tape #01-0304)
Adam was God manifested in the flesh.
(Following the Faith of Abraham, Tape #01-3001)
God made Adam the God of the earth.
(Following the Faith of Abraham; Tape #01-3001)
When Adam originally sinned he gave his god nature to Satan.
God could not intervene since He had made Adam the god of the earth. God was left on the outside looking in. (Following the Faith of Abraham; Tape #01-3001)
God is approximately 6'2" to 6'3" tall. (Spirit, Soul, and Body; Tape #01-0601)
God weighs approximately 200 lbs. Spirit, Soul, and Body; Tape #01-0601)
Jesus existed only as an image in the heart of God, until such time as the prophets of the Old
Testament could positively confess Jesus into existence through their constant prophecies. (The Power of the Tongue, pp.8-10)
Jesus death on the cross was not enough to save us. (What Happened From the Cross to the Throne, Tape #00-0303)
Jesus took on the nature of Satan when He was on the cross. (Jesus lost His divine nature). (What Happened From the Cross to the Throne, Tape #00-0303)
Jesus was dragged down into the bowels of Hell where He was beaten and bruised by Satan and his demons until Jesus could finally fight His way out of Hell 3 days later. (Believer's Voice of Victory, September 11, 1991)
(Classic Redemption, p.13)
Jesus was reborn in the pits of hell. What Happened From the Cross to the Throne, Tape #00-0303)
Jesus is in a higher position now than before He died on the cross. (What Happened From the Cross to the Throne, Tape #00-0303)
The biggest failure in the whole Bible is God. (Praise-a-thon, (TBN) recorded 1988
BENNY HINN
God has 9 parts (tn-theistic). 1. A. God has a body, soul and spirit. 2. B. Jesus has a body, soul and spirit. 3. C. Holy Spirit has a body, soul and spirit. (Benny Hinn broadcast, recorded 10/~3/90)
Christians are little messiahs.
Christians are little gods. (Praise-a-thon (TBN), recorded November 1990) (Our position in Christ, Tape #A03 1190-1)
Jesus at His death became one with Satan. (Benny Hinn broadcast, recorded 12/15/90)
Poverty comes from Hell.
Prosperity comes from Heaven.
Adam had complete dominion over the earth and all it contains.
4. A. Adam could fly like a bird.
5. B. Adam could swim underwater and breathe like a fish.
Adam went to the moon.
Adam walked on water.
Adam was a super being, He was the first superman that lived.
Adam had dominion over the sun, moon & stars.
Christians do not have Christ in their hearts.
Sow a big seed, when you confess it, you are activating the (Praise-a-thon (TBN), recorded November 1990)
When you don't give money, it shows that you have the devil's nature. (Praise-a-thon (TBN), recorded 4/21/91)
Wants to use Holy Ghost machine gun to kill Heresy Hunters. (Praise-a-thon (TBN), 11/8/90)
PAUL CROUCH
Christians are little gods. (Praise the Lord (TBN), recorded 7/7/86)
God draws no distinction between Himself and us.
God opens up the union of the very godhead (Trinity), and brings us into it. (Praise-a-thon (TBN), November 1990)
Paul Crouch will shoot heresy hunters (theology) if God doesn't (Praise-a-thon (TBN), 4/2/91)
Heresy hunters (theology) are to go to Hell. (Praise-a-thon (TBN), 4/2/91)
Does not want to see the ugly faces of heresy hunters (theology). (Praise-a-thon (TBN), 4/2/91)
SOURCE: The Word of Faith Movement - Some Facets of The Word of Faith Movement
http://www.discernment.org/WOF.htm Other Sources:
* The Word Faith Movement Exposed
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.mcallister3/WordFaith.htm Some of the People involved in The Word Faith Movement:
Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Rodney H Brown, Creflo Dollar, Paul Crouch, Jessie Duplaints, The God Channel, Renihard Bonnkie, Rod Parsley, John Avanzini, Oral Roberts, Joyce Meyer, John Hagee, T.D. Jakes, Kenneth Price, et.al.
* Deception in the Church (Hagee on the list)
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/page3.html The above are only 3 from the first google page of hundreds and hundreds of other sources.
My friend, I have seen and heard John Hagee teach the Word of God many times and have found no errors from the Text, at least that I'm aware of, or could find. I'm no lemming and when something preached doesn't " set right " with my soul, I research the subject ( Holy Bible ) to my satisfaction.
I will look over your links and into this WOF doctrine. Please tell me, are you a Christian ? If so, you don't think demons are real ? You don't beleive God can heal ? You do not think there is a "spiritual" world ? Please tell me what you, yourself beleive.
Regards,
Snooter ;o)
Most of the fundamentalist churches are good. Church of God usually is pro-America. The Methodists I know personaly are pro-America, however. If you are Methodist why not stay in that church and fight the anti-American leadership?
Ok Matchett, go ahead and get out of my "game playing" boat. I'm not playing games. I simply asked a few questions of you. You think I'm attempting to change the topic of interest to you. Not so. Forgive my being beneath your personal conversation. I have no intention of arguing with you on the subject. Truth & perhaps friendship are my motives. Scratch that, huh? Have a good life and I thank you for the links.
Snooter ;o)
I agree with you completely. I attend a wonderful Methodist Church every Sunday where the Bible is read and preached. The amens coming from the congregation will drown out the preacher and he has to et going again. It is up to every congregation to shape the direction of their church and to stand firm in their beliefs. Thank you for your hard work I am membership-care chairman, so the work of visiting the sickin hospitals, and preparing food for the greiving, and showers for the newborn give me the opportunity to serve my risen Lord in a wonderful Methodist Church. Denco