Shock and awe not only for Iraqis {The "Fair" tax cometh}

WorldNetDaily ^ | 4/16/2003 | By Joan Veon

[Taxman]

George, consider your statement carefully.

There is no distinction between the Flat Income Tax (FIT) and the National Retail Sales Tax (NRST) in respect of taxpayer pressure to keep the rate low.

Economically (to an economist, that is), the FIT and the NRST are equivalents.

The difference is that the NRST promotes FReedom and Liberty while respecting our God given right to privacy whereas the FIT is still an income tax, and the poor taxpayers will still have to file income tax returns.

I do not believe it is anybody's business how much money I or anyone else makes, particulary some government pogue in the IRS!

The issue is a FReedom issue, George, and all other issues re: fundamental tax reform are subservient!

[Taxman]

The black market would shrink under the NRST. Think it all the way through.

[Paul C. Jesup]

You are afraid of something that will not happen, you think a NRST with be taxed at every step from making it to selling. But doing that is not going to happen because the people who support this know doing that would CRASH the economy, hurt them and their political party which they won't let happen. Don't worry about it.

So continuing you fussing merely makes you look like a chicken little and a IRS flunky.

[Taxman]

You are so wrong, George. The NRST will cause a huge increase for all Americans -- the poor will get richer and the rich will get richer.

That is what America is about, George!

Your musings could have been written my Marx and Engels, and may well have been, for all I know. You ought not to plagarize them, George, without attribution!

I am not even going to bother to answer you except to say that the progressive income tax was intentionally designed to prevent the growth of an American middle class. The problem is, the American middle class came into being before the rates could be jacked up high enough to prevent it.

But there are still a bunch of folks working to "Fix that problem." Those poobahs in Washington, DC (and in state capitals and city/county government seats) who tax and spend the money they steal from decent, hard-working Americans are, some intentionally and some not so intentionally, doing Marx and Engels work as we speak!

[Principled]

Yes, CHIEF Negotiator's main interest was educating as many as he possibly could about the specifics and benefits of a national retail sales tax.

A few years before his death, he become solely focused on the "Fair Tax" (now HR 25).

I'm sure he's pleased with the progress the bill has made on several fronts.

[Principled]

Here's where I disagree:

1)A flat tax on income with no deductions and/or exemptions would have EVERYBODY interested in keeping the percentage low

Taxes would be hidden and embedded as they are now. Folks would fail to realize their true tax burden - as is the case now.

We would still have withholding from our paychecks.

We would still have FICA taxes withheld.

We would still have an IRS.

We would still be allowing the feds to decide how much of our money they're going to take.

2)The NRST creates a class of people who will have very little interest in keeping the bite low.

That assertion is flawed IMHO. It presumes that those who spend less will not desire lower taxes. That's just silly.

3)The same bottle of wine costs rich and poor the same with an NRST.

As it should be. Why should a product cost different amounts for individuals with different wealth???

[Bigun]

A flat tax on income with no deductions and/or exemptions would have EVERYBODY interested in keeping the percentage low, and thus government smaller.

EVERYBODY covers a whole lot of territory George! Would that include the drug dealer who made $300K selling PCP laced toke to our kids down on the corner George? Or the back room poker player, or the prostitute, or the...? All have $0 legal income you know. You actually believe they are going to run to the taxman and ask him how much do I owe on the $300K I made last year selling dope? If so I got some swamp land over in the Arabian desert I need to sell and you seem like a GOOD candidate for the purchase!

They WOULD pay under the NRST when he bought their gold chains and Mercedes however now wouldn't they?

[Bigun]

The NRST creates a class of people who will have very little interest in keeping the bite low. And, that class is the most influential in the country. The same bottle of wine costs rich and poor the same with an NRST.

Well DUH! This IS The United States of America George! You know the place where EVERYONE is supposed to be equal under the law!

Oh! BTW, the KEY element you are overlooking here is that, under the NRST, EVERYONE would get a powerful inducement to reign in the government with the purchase of that bottle of wine and EVERYTHING else they happen to purchase! They would get a detailed reciept showing exactly the extent of the governments bite and, under that condition, I garantee you that the government would SOON begin to shrink!

[Bigun]

#s 9 & 10! GREAT Posts! Spot on!

[Bigun]

I'm sure he's pleased with the progress the bill has made on several fronts.

Indeed he would!

[Bigun]

The issue is a FReedom issue, George, and all other issues re: fundamental tax reform are subservient!

B R A V O ! ! !

Simply CANNOT be said any more plainly than that!

[no-s]

I thought the break was equivalent to the tax paid up to the poverty level of spending (possibly graduated over that amount, if people wanted to file paperwork).

Anyway George, have you considered the opportunity cost due to people unwilling to enter into business relations because of the tax consequences? This one whacks me every time I try to get customers out of state, or try to get certain types of contracts. The income tax system is loaded with all sorts of behavioral modification (aka social engineering), there is no way to seperate the good from the bad, the best course of action is just to nuke it. Attempts to incite class warfare over changing the tax system are not a valid argument.

[A. Pole]

Joe and Jane Sixpack are hooked on cheap credit; why would a self-proclaimed anti-gloablist not hold them accountable and merely blame the leasure class for essentially, holding stock in American companies?

Yeah sure, tighten the screw on "Joe and Jane Sixpack" in the name of "accountability". Very noble reason.

[Windcatcher]

The article also failed to mention that, in the case of an NRST, Donnie and Suzie could buy an ALREADY EXISTING house and pay ZERO TAX on it. They'd make out far better than under the current system, where you can only write the interest off. So, they don't buy a NEW house. Well, gee whiz...we already know that new construction costs a premium; how many young couples can afford them as it is? Besides, does anyone think that developers will just sit by and watch people flock to existing construction? Of course not; they want to sell houses. They'll immeiately start trying to get their costs down to stay competitive.

Same for cars. Perhaps Donnie and Suzie should buy a two-year lease return instead of a new car. I'd consider that good advice in any case, and it's even better advice under the FairTax, since they'd pay zero tax on it. Automakers would likely have to lower the price of new cars to remain competitive.

John and Jane? Excuse me, but where does it make sense to stretch yourself such that you're spending everything you make? Doesn't anyone else think that's imprudent, dangerous even? The FairTax encourages saving and investing. It encourages building a nest egg instead of blowing it on expensive cars or buying beyond your means. Isn't this a good thing?

[numberonepal]

Hey guys George actually thinks Corporations pay taxes! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[heckler]

I believe that you are correct. I was mistaken.

[George Frm Br00klyn Park]

"The company that chose not to drop their price by 25% would be out-competed by the companies that did lower their prices. It's just that simple."

Z, Or when the company cuts it's prices not because of "choice", but because of the necessity to "compete", they still go out of business. And, as I wrote before, the remaining company at that point RAISES prices to recoop their losses. when competition is eliminated, that is the way it works. "What the market will bear".
"What you been smokin'?" was began by the "I want some of what you and the author are smoking." comment by EEE.

If no one pays a tax on final use products except for folks who are unlicensed godgov approved corporations, the tax rate of 29% is WAY low. If farmers through bakers pay no taxes on their end use products {"tractors, ovens"} then why should harry homeowner? "Godgov" is an entity worshipped by MANY. Some call "him" "Big Brother" or some "Big Mama". I think you may recognize him/her. Peace and love, George.

[JohnGalt]

Tell me, what is the difference between cheapening the value of the dollar via the printing press versus a tax increase?

[George Frm Br00klyn Park]

There is no distinction between the Flat Income Tax (FIT) and the National Retail Sales Tax (NRST) in respect of taxpayer pressure to keep the rate low.
Economically (to an economist, that is), the FIT and the NRST are equivalents.

I do not believe it is anybody's business how much money I or anyone else makes, particulary some government pogue in the IRS!
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TM, Let's say that a person makes 100 million dollars with investment income only. Under the NRST, that person would pay taxes only on the things they need to buy. As mentioned in the article, if the object bought was a "trust" item, not even then. So, say that person spends $10 million just to get by {they already have most essentials no doubt}, at 21% they would pay $2,100,000 to the feds. If, with no deductions and/or exemptions, at 10% under the FIT, they would pay $10 million.

If a person makes $100,000, and spent $60,000 they would pay NRST $12,600, and FIT $10,000.

If a person made $10,000, and spent $10,000 plus their "rebate", they would pay NRST $2,100+, and FIT $1,000.

Now, tell me again how the incentive to keep the tax rate low is the same throughout income levels.
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Godgov WILL KNOW everybody's income and expenditures with either system. And, how do you figure that the "black market would shrink under the NRST."? Why/how will godgov know of all the things one buys and from whom? The only records will be those of godgov approved and licensed producers and vendors. The income tax in the former{?} U.S.S.R. has shown to be a better revenue generator eliminating some of the black market most recently.

Nah, there is NO doubt that for "up and comers", the FIT is MUCH better than the NRST. The people with the time to pay attention, and the wherewithal to most affect tax lawmakers and tax laws would have MUCH more incentive to keep the single rate as low as possible. Peace and love, George.

[Zon]

Worthy of repeating:

"The issue is a FReedom issue, George, and all other issues re: fundamental tax reform are subservient!"