The Union And Confederacy Contradictions In Freedoms And Rights

The Sierra Times ^ | April 10,2003 | Dorothy Anne Seese

[sheltonmac]

"The Constitution was to control the Federal Government only."

Exactly. Too bad some people just don't get it.

[Aurelius]

You seem confused on several points. Because they had seceded, which was understood to always be an option when the Constitution was ratified, the states of the Confederacy were no longer subject to the U.S. Constitution.

The South did not "rush to declare war to spread slavery". The war was forced on them by Lincoln who did not wish to see the revenue from tariffs on the South lost to the furtherance of his mercantilist schemes.

[=Intervention=]

So, because of the outcome, no state should be allowed to have a flag with the Stars and Bars? And if any should dare, why, we will proscribe the freedom of every voter in that state, and then the state itself, to fly a flag based on the stars and bars! Why? Because as you said, war settles debates -- and brute force is required to keep the rebels down and to make sure they never remember that there never was anything but a centralized union. Purge the history books, purge the flags, for everyone must agree, and those who do not, well, violence is reserved for them too, huh? That's the logical extension of your freedom-sapping policies.

[=Intervention=]

You got your facts wrong again, Illbay. Booth shouted out "Sic Semper Tyrannis!" as he fired -- for the Latin-impaired, "Thus always to tyrants." I don't agree with murder, but Lincoln's suspending the Constitution, putting the nation under martial law, shutting down presses with which he disagreed, among other things, lead me to appreciate Booth's sentiments.

[=Intervention=]

It was a union of soveriegn states -- the ability to withdraw from the union is part of that sovereignity. Go and learn.

[webstersII]

"I don't think the Founding Fathers envisioned the child of their making ruled by ten or eleven cities."

That's because the Founding Fathers expected a more distributed system of control, such that the states had more say in the daily affairs of people instead of the federal gov't. If that were still the case then it wouldn't be possible to hamstring the whole country by the whims of a handful of (mostly) liberal large cities.

[=Intervention=]

More mind-control from Illbay, who can't seem to figure out history to save his life. God forbid that we champion the state's right to leave the Union, which is actually a state's right since it is sovereign. If that marks me a traitor, then I am on the same side of history as Patrick Henry. Life can't be all that bad.

[Illbay]

Booth considered Lincoln a "Tyrant" because he was going to allow "niggers" to vote.

He made that statement on many occasions before the assassination.

The Civil War was fought over slavery, and its only lasting legacy was the ending of slavery many decades before it would have ended otherwise.

[Illbay]

States have no right to leave the Union.

That's now been settled.

In particular, you have no right to commit acts of treason against the government because you don't like the outcome of the election.

Or do you support the Democrats and their Leftie buddies who've done nothing but scream and yell about Bush since November 2000?

Or is it (as is more likely) simply that when you like something, it's legal, and when you don't it's not?

Geez, I always feel like I'm arguing with a bunch of teenage boys on these threads.

[jlogajan]

The South did not "rush to declare war to spread slavery". The war was forced on them by Lincoln

Many southern states had seceded before Lincoln was even sworn into office. In their articles of secession, they ranted about protecting slavery.

[jdege]

"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen, and I say let us give them all they want."

- William Tecumseh Sherman

The South chose war, rather than abandon their dreams of extending slavery.

[jlogajan]

It was a union of soveriegn states -- the ability to withdraw from the union is part of that sovereignity. Go and learn.

Advocates of slavery peg the laugh meter when they demand "sovereignty."

[MattAMiller]

It does not seem to me that state governments have, by their nature, any more respect for individual rights than the federal government.

[an amused spectator]

All slavery was ended by the Emancipation Proclamation

You're correct. All slavery was NOT ended by the EP.

No federal income tax could have been perpetrated on a confederacy

Open to debate.

Over two hundred and fifty thousand Americans died on U.S. soil in the war between the North and the South

What are your numbers? I have varying totals.

[an amused spectator]

Or is it (as is more likely) simply that when you like something, it's legal, and when you don't it's not?

Illbay has been here long enough to know that this is what the Democrat Party is actually trying to implement by blocking Bush's federal judicial appointees. All you need is about 2000 black-robed clowns ruling that whatever the Dems like is legal, and whatever the Dems don't like is "illegal" and "unconstitutional". The Supreme Court's ruling on the Dred Scott case is still in the law books, I would wager. Does that make it "legal"? ;-)

We've already seen that Bill Clinton liked perjuring himself, and last time I checked, he wasn't prosecuted for it.

[Aurelius]

"Show me where is specifically allows unilateral secession and I'll agree with you."

I thought that it was a general principle of Anglo Saxon Law that:

All is permitted that is not expressly forbidden.

while only totalitarian regimes follow the principle that:

All is forbidden which is not expressly permitted.

[Aurelius]

"All slavery was ended by the Emancipation Proclamation..."

I thought that even pro-Union historians accepted that the only purpose intended of the Emancipation Proclamation (aside from the slight hope it might lure some seceded states back into the Union with the hope they might then keep their slaves) and the only purpose that it actually served, was to sway British and European opinion to favor the Union.

[Chancellor Palpatine]

War is hell on women and children. Nobody to blame but the southern men who started that one -just as the survivors of Iraq have nobody to blame but their own oligarchy that started this one.

[Sam's Army]

Relax.

A state can have any flag it wants as its STATE flag in my opinion (yes, including the confederate flag or some version thereof. Even if it was revived just to annoy the blacks wanting to sit anywhere on a bus). My comment is that the southern states belong to the good ol' USofA (God bless her) and therefore fly the Stars and Stripes as the flag representing what nation they belong to.

Seperatists lost the war, and we are therefore united and better off for that loss today.

Maybe it wasn't such a great idea to fire on Ft Sumter after all.

[LexBaird]

I'm not sure there is such a thing as free labor. I know I don't work for free. Slaves didn't get wages, but the owners surley had to provide for them if they were to live very long. Not free labor from the owners point of view either. The immigrant labor force in the North wasn't free labor either. Low wages, abysmal working conditions were more akin to indentured servitude.

Classic logical fallacy. You have invoked the word free under two different definitions of the word, and conflated them to mean the same. Free in the first sentance denotes the ability to determine one's own employment. Free in the succeeding sentances denotes monitary cost.