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To: Celtjew Libertarian
Treatment of Jews is a signal, not because of anything inherent to the Jews, but because it signals a shift in mindset.

That's very insightful but do you think that applies to strictly "Christian" nations or others.... Others meaning Islamic since I'm not aware of Jews gaining any footholds in any other nations outside of predominately Christian or Islamic are you? (Israel notwhithstanding) I think the best countries to study the rise and fall and rise and fall and so forth of Jewish minorites are Hungary, Russia, and Poland. It has been a rough ride in those nations and many Jews made the mistake of hitching their wagon to the wrong horse. Do you think it's coincidence that Jews have fared better in Anglo nations including of course here? I don't. I did not mention the modern Jewish experience in Muslim nations which has been disastrous recently with the exceptions of Turkey and Morroco...which are both shining examples of tolerance only in comparison to their tribal neighbors. Germany...that is a case study all by itself. Regards.

47 posted on 04/13/2003 11:10:16 AM PDT by wardaddy (Hootie to head EEOC...)
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To: wardaddy
That's very insightful but do you think that applies to strictly "Christian" nations or others.... Others meaning Islamic since I'm not aware of Jews gaining any footholds in any other nations outside of predominately Christian or Islamic are you?

The ages when tolerant Muslims ruled Spain were generally considered a golden age for both Jews and Muslims. When more fanatical Muslims came to power in the mid-12th century and started persecuting non-Muslims (both Christians and Jews), Islam started losing its grip on Spain.

More recently, I believe there were thriving Jewish communities in Iran, until the fall of the Shah, and Iraq, until the rise of the Ba'athists. I'd have to check things in more detail for the rest of the Muslim world, but that much I'm at least vaguely familiar with.

There was a thriving Jewish community in China for several centuries, but they disappeared, mainly through assimilation, about a generation before Marco Polo showed up. There are still small Jewish communities in India that date back more than a thousand years.

And no... I don't think it's any coincidence that Jews have done well in the Anglo nations, as the Anglo nations have thrived. Again, though, I'm not sure how much that is anything divine, as much as the nature of the Anglo nations. They have thrived on trade and open markets. It's hard to have an open market, when certain groups of people are excluded from it.

50 posted on 04/13/2003 11:30:22 AM PDT by Celtjew Libertarian (No more will we pretend that our desire/For liberty is number-cold and has no fire.)
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To: wardaddy
"I'm not aware of Jews gaining any footholds in any other nations outside of predominately Christian or Islamic are you?"

I might be mistaken, but I believe the Jews were comparatively well-treated, as were most minorities, during the heyday of the Ottoman Empire.

However, as the Empire went into decline, the lot of the Jews became steadily worse.

66 posted on 04/13/2003 7:17:57 PM PDT by okie01 (The Mainstream Media: IGNORANCE ON PARADE.)
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