Russian organization was training Iraqi spies, documents show (more info from Iraqi documents)

San Francisco Chronicle ^ | April 13, 2003 | Robert Collier and Bill Wallace

[RusIvan]

It is time to review every Russian who is up for citizenship and vet them re their political views. +++

There are few Russian apologists on Free Republic who should be vetted.+++

Granpa how about first amendment? Do you ready to install political dicrimination already? Same as communist?

I thought it is violation of american constitution.

[Grampa Dave]

We have no room in this country for criminals and those who hate America 24/7.

We have to tolerate the left wingers born here.

However there is zero need to tolerate criminals and haters of America who want to be citizens.

Take your sorry Hate America A$$ back to Russia!

[Grampa Dave]

The same goes for scorpions.

Once a scorpion or a poisonous snake, the critters will all ways be a poisonous and dangerous critter.

[Grampa Dave]

After what has happened in Iraq, before and after it, you don't have to convince me that the current Russian Leaders are not friends.

They are enemies of America, and we had best ferret out their comrades in America wanting to become citizens or who have become citizens. These are viper/scorpion embeds waiting to harm/kill Americans.

[capocchio]

the reason Iraq fell

The reason Iraq fell was their military wasn't worth bull doinkies, there leadership wasn't worth bull doinkies, and their training wasn't worth bull doinkies.

Further, our military was GOOD. It was well trained, well equiped, well led and it's well thought out plan was well executed.

And we had fewer troops there than did Iraq.

Note to other dictators who think their military "juggernaut" could have done better. It might take months rather than weeks, but the conclusion would still be as Sancho Panza said. "Whether the rock hits the bowl, or the bowl hits the rock, the end result for the bowl is the same" (well, sorta something like that).

[RusIvan]

However there is zero need to tolerate criminals and haters of America who want to be citizens. ++

So you pro political cleansing?

You will need special service for that. Accually one of the duties of Soviet KGB was political cleansing.

Former USSR has the law about anti-soviet activity. The article 58 of Criminal code.
Which said following: "anyone who hate soviet state and support anti-communist political ideas are criminal punished by 10 years of labor camps".

You substitute "soviet" with "american" and you have article 58 for yourself.

You have to know that Article 58 was the base of political repressions in USSR.

I thought that political cleansing is the feature ONLY for totalitarian state:(((.
Like USSR, Saddam's Iraq and so on.

[Grampa Dave]

Naah! We have no room for so called new citizens who hate America and wish my grandchildren harm!

However, keep up your support of the really evil that your beloved Russia represents.

Don't bother to condemn the criminal actions of your beloved Russians before, during and after in Iraq.

That will help to remove the Russian cancers from America.

We will have no problem with good Russian citizens, who love America and defend it against the criminals in charge of Russia now.

Those who support the KGB mobsters are practicing a self emulation in today's world, just like the Islamofacists living in America. The Good Arabs who love America and defend it will have a place here. Those who hate America lie their Russian Counterparts who hate America have no place here.

[RusIvan]

We will have no problem with good Russian citizens, who love America and defend it against the criminals in charge of Russia now. +++

Grandpa who will decide who is who?
Special political cleansing board? Some kind of American KGB?
And how about First Amendment?
I realy want to know.

BTW if I don't agree with you it doesn't mean that I hate America.
I already was blamed that I hated Soviet Union once. Which was true:). Now that so it is funny:).

You know you may be good KGB operative Gradpa. At least you have same vocability as them.

[Grampa Dave]

Naah, I tangled with KGB and its operatives for years. We know how to find their spawn very easily, and I ain't by myself.

However, you and your buddies don't have worry about an old 64 year old grampa who know all about the BS the KGBers presented then and now.

You and your comrades need to wake up that the rest of the World and most of America is waking up to what your leaders and the rest of you hate America 24/7 Russians are like!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/892681/posts

"Washington is no longer impeded by the United Nations and certainly not by France, Germany or Russia despite their continued diplomatic efforts to impede US policy. The three have been lateralized. By President Bush's definition, the United Nations has become irrelevant. Without the ability to use their veto power, these three have little or no impact on the US besides effecting opinion. France has, by all accounts, joined the side of the fundamentalist Islamic hegemonists and continues to attempt to obstruct US policy even after the Iraq war has been won. Chirac can snipe from the sidelines, but without significant military or economic weapons there is actually little chance his threats can be effective. Germany is the puppet of Chirac as Schroeder sold out the US to keep his domestic power. Russia is so deeply involved with the Hussein regime that they can only put their tail between their legs and keep their heads down.

"The coalition formed for the war with Iraq has every reason to grow in stature. The former eastern bloc European nations, freed from their own brand of tyranny with the fall of the Soviet Union, sided with the coalition and now look forward to their expanding world role, militarily, financially and politically, alongside the United States. Britain, Japan and Australia have shown their integrity and remain solid allies. However, they too realize that the United States is entirely militarily independent. The US now needs only political partners.

Some good advice here Ruskie, you might want to read it again and listen to it: "Russia is so deeply involved with the Hussein regime that they can only put their tail between their legs and keep their heads down."

[RusIvan]

Naah, I tangled with KGB and its operatives for years. We know how to find their spawn very easily, and I ain't by myself. +++

You probably had that with spies. I don't know that kind.

I told you about political police of KGB.
Those guys looked on people political profile. Same as you wnat.
They decided are you good citizen of Soviet Union or your are political criminal. Same as you propose here for US.

They did political cleansing and repressions you eager to do. You are like thier brother by spirit.

You invent first someting like article 58 of Soviet criminal code then political police and then you will be ready for political repressions in America.

[Grampa Dave]

A little advice Ivan. If you want to be an America, quit defending the criminals in charge of your country.

Also, there is nothing wrong with us vetting out the enemies of America pretending to be Americans. We did that with your buddies after WWII until the USSR fell.

It is obvious that we now need to look at some of those who want to be citizens and or have become citizens to see where their loyalty is. That includes Russian and Arabic peoples wanting to be citizens or ones who became citizens during their Comrad Clinton's reign!

[RusIvan]

It is obvious that we now need to look at some of those who want to be citizens and or have become citizens to see where their loyalty is. +++

You look in it if your looking is lawful. But what you just said smells by political repressions and cleansing. By political policing.

I'm already saw all this. In USSR. I don't want to see it again.

And you didn't answer my question. What about First Amendment? DO I have the right to express my thoughts openly? What is you opinion? DO I have that right in America?

[Grampa Dave]

You have every right to express yourself. If your words come back to haunt you, don't blame us. A lot of so called famous Americans since 9/11 have realized that they have the first amendment right to say about anything. However when you crap on this Country, your words will have consequences.

Adios Comrade! Your and your fellow Russian Quislings/Apologists are not worth wasting Oxygen on.

You buddy Putrid Vlad has prepared a very sick bed for all of the Russian apologists lie in and mutter hate America mantras while wrapping our first amendment around them.

Be my guest continue to slam America and defend the vile and evil Russians in charge of Russia. That is your first amendment right.

My first amendment rights earned by my ancestors before 1776 to now, gives me the right to say "I don't trust you! I think that you and your ilk are very dangerous to my family and my America!"

[Grampa Dave]

This new thread on Free Republic has more data on the cozy relationship between Moscow and the raping/murdering thugs of Soddomite.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/892920/posts

Baghdad -- A Moscow-based organization was training Iraqi intelligence agents as recently as last September -- at the same time Russia was resisting the Bush administration's push for a tough stand against Saddam Hussein's regime, Iraqi documents discovered by The Chronicle show.

The documents found Thursday and Friday in a Baghdad office of the Mukhabarat, the Iraqi secret police, indicate that at least five agents graduated Sept. 15 from a two-week course in surveillance and eavesdropping techniques, according to certificates issued to the Iraqi agents by the "Special Training Center" in Moscow.

The Russian government, which has expressed intense disagreement with the U. S.-led war on Iraq, has repeatedly denied giving any military or security assistance to the Hussein regime. Any such aid would violate U.N. sanctions that have severely limited trade, military and other relations with Iraq since 1991.

[Grampa Dave]

Another new thread on FR makes the connections between the KGBers still in control of Russia and the recent so called peace marches in America!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/893027/posts

Still Red More spontaneous anti-American demonstrations.

By Ion Mihai Pacepa

In the April 12-13 weekend, more peace demonstrations were staged simultaneously in the United States and the rest of the world. Because the Iraqi people were at that very moment welcoming their American liberators, the demonstrators hastily shifted their message from antiwar to anti-colonialism. But the theme was still pure anti-Americanism. Why? Who was behind them?

In early April 2003, the World Peace Council (WPC) declared April 12th "international mobilization day" and called upon the people of the entire world to organize demonstrations demanding the world's governments to "stop all support to the US and British murderers" and insisting that the U.N. General Assembly convene in order to stop the war in Iraq.

As of April 10, WPC branches in 57 countries around the world had joined in calling for these new anti-American demonstrations. I have elsewhere noted that the WPC was created by the Soviets in the 1950s, and that its honorary chairman is today still the same KGB asset, Romesh Chandra, who headed that organization during the days when I was a Communist general.

[Orion78]

I have my suggestion. He probably told that Russia and other countries with whom he sits at the moment are not up to that task.

Since it is American, Britian and a host of others that are doing the dirty work for the rest of the world, (i.e. "cleaning south of Russia's border"), I don't understand why Putin and "other countries with whom he sits" need to be "up to that task". Unless of course, the task is opposing us. And, if I recall correctly, some of the nations with which Putin sits are;

China (Communist)
North Korea (Communist)
Iran (Terrorist Sponsor)
Iraq (Terrorist Sponsor)
Syria (Terrorist Sponsor)
Palestinians (Terrorist Sponsor)
Cuba (Socialist)
Germany (Socialist)
France (The French)

I could go on but I think I've made my point. That is some good company Putin keeps. Is it no wonder why America is suspicious of Russia and always, "throwing around accusations", as you put it? You say Russia does not ally with these countries, but every thread on my homepage suggests otherwise. Shouldn't Putin's background (X-KGB) and company make you, and other Russians like you who believe in capitalism and democracy, suspicious?

BTW the missile which Russia sells is under UN restriction of range which make it the defensive weapon. Name Iskander-E. You may see characteristics of ROSOBORONEXPORT site.

I have no doubt that you sell those legally in compliance with UN regulations. What the Americans have a problem with is when you do things like this:

Russia, China aid Iran's missile program (9/10/97)

Russia and China are working closely with Iran in building long-range nuclear missiles that could be fielded within three years, The Washington Times has learned.

A detailed Israeli intelligence report about the cooperation, which was given to the CIA and Pentagon, confirms that Iran is building two systems based on North Korea's Nodong missile with ranges up to 1,200 miles, Pentagon officials said.

Among the Russians directly involved is Yuri Koptev, head of the Russian Space Agency, as well as the aerospace director of the Russian state arms exporting agency, who was not identified further, said officials who spoke on condition of anonymity.

Russian and Chinese transfers of missile technology to Iran appear to violate the 31-nation Missile Technology Control Regime, which bans exports of missiles and related technology for medium-range missiles. It calls for sanctions to be imposed on violators who ship missiles with ranges greater than 186 miles and payloads heavier than 1,100 pounds.

Iran to focus on longer-range Shihab-4 (7/19/00)

The officials said Iran will focus its efforts on completing development of the Shihab-4 and staging its first test launch. The Shihab-4 aims to have a range of at least 2,000 kilometers, 700 kilometers more than the Shihab-3. U.S. defense officials said the Shihab-4 will be a breakthrough for Iran. Unlike the Shihab-3, the Shihab-4 will be completely based on Russian technology -- probably that of the SS-4 missile.

Some Western defense sources agree. But they said Iran plans to continue with its missile development with the Shihab-5. This missile will have a range of 5,500 kilometers and could strike parts of the United States.

The sources expect Iran to complete development of the Shihab-4 in 2005. The missile is expected to be completed as Teheran will produce nuclear weapons.

Now look at what happened over the course of only 3 years thanks to Russia's questionable sales. Iran will have nukes in 2 years, along with missiles to put the nukes on, that can hit the United States and even Moscow. Ask yourself, do you trust nuclear weapons and missiles with ranges of 5500km in the hands of the Iranians? What about the Syrians?

[RusIvan]

Shouldn't Putin's background (X-KGB) and company make you, and other Russians like you who believe in capitalism and democracy, suspicious?++++

Honestly not. Because we all from Soviet union.
Putin was student of Saint Petersburg university, the law school. After graduation they hired him to intellegence survice of KGB.
In my university the recruters of KGB went too. So as MVD (the ministry of internal affairs). They hunted for law faculty students. I knew few who was recruted.
So for me it is nothing unusual.
KGB didn't take volontiers. They choosed someone then made the proposition.
I red CIA of USA did same things in american universities.

It was life. We lived in USSR then we had to do along with it. I was student of physics so they wasn't interested in me. And I had the problems with political office too. Long tongue you know.
If I would be student of law school they would kick me out.
But they allowed to physicists some free way.
We joked that all the soviet physicist was anti-sovetchiks. It is almost true accually.

So Putin just did what young man could do in his situation. If he turns down KGB recruter then he maybe didn't find another job. All jobs in USSR was state you remember.

But he still russian guy. So it mean that he is nationalist and love Russia. His life abroad teached him many things about West. Thank to KGB intellegence. So now he wants to invent and copy them to Russia.
It is fine for me.

Ask yourself, do you trust nuclear weapons and missiles with ranges of 5500km in the hands of the Iranians? What about the Syrians? +++

Yes it is worry me. I don't want that in thier hands.

I want to explain you situation as I see it.

You know when Russia became independent, she inherit some things from USSR. I mean some connections with some countries.

Whole idea of Russia independence as I learn in 80th (it began lot before 1991!) was about to cut off the long list of Soviet allies and clients which Russia as the core of USSR had to feed and cater (with oil for example).
But in same time Russia didn't want just to abandon all of them.
The idea was just to trade with those countries with same merchandases but for hard currencies.
If everything go smoothly Russia haves the same markets for her goods as USSR had. But no obligations of USSR!
It is win-win situation for Russia.

That is why Russia continues to support the relations with those countries. Some of them are debtors of Russia.
Russia want to get those debts.
Aside of that be sure Russia don't like them more then US likes them. But business is business.

If Russia can find another markets for her goods she will switch at once.

It is just brief explanation.
What to do now? I don't know.
As US goes cleaning south of russian border. It benefits Russia in matter of security but in same time it hurts Russia finantially.
There has to be solution. But it is not up to me and you probably too.

[Orion78]

And as I said Saddam is bad person. But there are worser then him. So I don't exactly understand why you after him first."

[Orion78]

"So Putin just did what young man could do in his situation. If he turns down KGB recruter then he maybe didn't find another job. All jobs in USSR was state you remember."

"But he still russian guy. So it mean that he is nationalist and love Russia. His life abroad teached him many things about West. Thank to KGB intellegence. So now he wants to invent and copy them to Russia. It is fine for me."

---

From Putin's Autobiography:

... Even before I graduated from school, I wanted to work in intelligence. It was a dream of mine, although it seemed about as likely as a flight to Mars. And sure, my ambitions sometimes changed. I also wanted to be a sailor. And at one point I really wanted to be a pilot.

The Academy of Civil Aviation is in Leningrad and I was hell-bent on getting in. I read the literature and even subscribed to an aviation journal. But then books and spy movies like The Sword and the Shield took hold of my imagination. What amazed me most of all was how one man’s effort could achive what whole armies could not. One spy could decide the fate of thousands of people. At least that’s the way I understood it.

The Academy of Civil Aviation quickly lost its thrill. I had made my choice. I wanted to be a spy.

My parents didn’t understand this right away. My coach had gone to see them and told them that as an athlete, I could get into an institute practically without passing exams. So they tried to talk me into going to an institute. My coach took their side. He couldn’t understand why I was resisting. “You have a 100 percent chance of getting in to the very Academy of Civil Aviation,” he said. “And if you don’t get into university, then you’ll go to the army.”

It was a difficult situation. My father was a very powerful man. But I dug my heels in, and said I had made up my mind.

Then another coach of mine from the Trud Club, Leonid Ionovich, came to visit. He was a clever guy. “Well,” he said to me. “Where are you going?” Of course he already knew. He was just acting sly. I said, “To university.” “OK, that’s great,” he said. “But what faculty?” “The law school,” I answered. Then he roared: “What? To catch people? What are you doing? You’ll be a cop. Do you understand?” I was insulted. “I’m not going to be a cop!” I yelled back.

For a year, they put pressure on me every day. That only increased my desire to go to law school. But why law school? Let me explain.

In order to find out how to become a spy, somewhere back at the beginning of 9th grade I had gone to the office of the KGB Directorate. A guy came out and listened to me. “I want to get a job with you,” I said. “That’s terrific, but there are several issues,” he said. “First, we don’t take people who come to us on their own initiative. Second, you can come to us only after the army or after some civilian university.”

I was intrigued. “What kind of university?” I asked. “Any!” he said. He probably just wanted to get rid of me. “But what kind do you prefer?” I asked. “Law school.” And that was that. From that moment on, I began to prepare for the law faculty of Leningrad University. And nobody could stop me ...

[RusIvan]

So he wanted to go to spy for motherland? But KGb still didn't take volontiers.

You know during soviet times there was amount of romantisation of the military or spy profession. "Defendors of Motherland who on front line for your peace and life".

SO young Putin fell for it as it seems. Many young guys did too. I remember that the competition for the admission in military intitutions was high. 2-3 for 1. Someone thought that it was russian patriotic. Accually at that age many thought that way. The better understanding came later.