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***Operation Iraqi Freedom - Situation Room - Day 20 - LIVE THREAD***
Multiple ^ | April 8, 2003 | Various

Posted on 04/07/2003 9:03:51 PM PDT by An.American.Expatriate

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To: An.American.Expatriate
No evidence of explosion in hotel. Sky News talking head.
1,601 posted on 04/08/2003 2:51:24 AM PDT by this_ol_patriot
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To: An.American.Expatriate
Many have said that "they were warned" which is quite true. Each and everyone of them knows that what they are doing could get them killed. But, as another FReeper pointed out - the embeddeds are also "standing next to" combatants. Dumb? Maybe - but they know what they are doing is important.

I think you miss the point... a reporter serving with allied forces is obviously a target since our enemies have absolutely no problem with targetting reporters. The Iraqis, for example, suffer absolutely nothing in terms of the propaganda war or in their war effort at large if they hit reporters- their public doesn't care, and ours expects it to happen because the Iraqis after all, are known not to care. Dead reporters do nothing to the Iraqi side's morale or to their political efforts.

But when reporters serve among the enemy- at least an enemy which does not follow the rules of war- they are making themselves a tool of the enemy. Some alleviate this by also being as useful a tool for the good guys- us- as they are reluctantly for the enemy.

They can all be used as human shields and if they are WILLING human shields, the mere fact that they are willing makes their presence a war crime. But for the sake of practicality, since reporters on scene can occasionally be useful to our side, this aspect of some at least being willing enablers is ignored.

Another way in which reporters serve the enemy is that their presence makes it difficult to fight, and can be even worse in that they enable the enemy to put our troops in great danger. In the most innocent manifestation, their presence is an obstacle to our activities because they occupy one more area we cannot bomb and must go around; unlike civilians, reporters as individuals actively seek action and actively get in the way, and can cause a soldier to be distracted or to hesitate for a fatal second.

But in their most dangerous manifestation, reporters among the enemy can and often are used deliberately to hinder or kill our forces- something which cannot of course happen when reporters are embedded with our troops, since they aren't in the power of the enemy. The enemy can place reporters in areas to protect their buildings, facilities, and other legit targets, as Iraq has by placing its info ministry offices inside the hotel among the reporters. They and their equipment can be used as camouflage to prevent our side from dseeing a gun emplacement. This is a tactic that works against the coallition side, but does not work against Iraq because they don't have ANY "forbidden targets" and their forces are allowed to shoot anything and anyone.

An enemy which does not believe in a free press can direct the cameras of reporters and even threaten reporters with death or imprisonment so as to give false impressions and bolster their propaganda efforts. Iraq has threatened and imprisoned Newsday reporters, for example. This is something that does not happen to reporters embedded with alied forces, who are not forced to give untruthful information at gunpoint or with fear. The worst they can undergo is expulsion- but only for saying too much.

Reporters among the enemy force us to plan for their being taken hostage or for their being endangered; our enemies, meanwhile, do not have to concern themselves in the least about what happens to reporters among our troops. Iraq faced no legal or PR problems when it rocketed a command center where two journalists were, as you might notice. NO one was outraged precisely because we all know that's dangerous. Our enemy does not need to worry about reporters being taken hostage by our side.

But if we hit reporters in what has become an effective and guarded Iraqi command center- the center of their propaganda ministry- we face PR problems and everyone is outraged.

Journalists held by the enemy can have their film confiscated and equipment taken over for the use of the enemy. Journalists among allied forces are out of the enemy's reach so long as they aren't captured; and in the event of an impending capture they can destroy their communiscations equipment sdo the enemy cannot get their hands on it.

If both sides were morally equivalent and both sides fighting by the same rules, you would be correct, both sides would be equally hindered and would benefit equally from the presence of reporters. But there is no moral equivalency here.

It is not really that subtle a difference between reporters embedded with coalition troops and those in the control of the enemy, who are outside of our ability to protect them. There is a glaring difference.

1,602 posted on 04/08/2003 2:52:17 AM PDT by piasa (Attitude adjustments offered here free of charge.)
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To: SirAllen
Yes, Qatar's leadership is going to have to make a decision soon.

Is he going to side with us in the war on terror in the future or is he going to side with the terrorists by sponsoring them on AlJazeera?

1,603 posted on 04/08/2003 2:52:36 AM PDT by A_Niceguy_in_CA
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To: An.American.Expatriate
Fox - Jim Angle on live
1,604 posted on 04/08/2003 2:53:27 AM PDT by Tree of Liberty (my cat's breath smells of Cheeto's and marshmallows)
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To: dsmtoday
Do you have a source link?

What is Strategy Page?
1,605 posted on 04/08/2003 2:54:14 AM PDT by An.American.Expatriate
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To: All
We got to take out BaghdadBob ! Come-on Marines !
Get the US 4th Army MOVING !!
1,606 posted on 04/08/2003 2:54:35 AM PDT by Orlando
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To: this_ol_patriot
Could this have been a Sabot round? Looks possible from the photos of the damage though I would think there would be much more damage even if it was.
1,607 posted on 04/08/2003 2:55:06 AM PDT by FireTrack
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To: Prince Charles
"The Arabs were relaying the tank's movements (heard the translators) -- that's why he died."

Wow! Geraldo should be glad that all that happened to him was that he was kicked out!

Ed
1,608 posted on 04/08/2003 2:55:55 AM PDT by Sir_Ed
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To: An.American.Expatriate
RPGII, RPG III or ILERPG??

RPG III
Studied ILE a bit, but never used it...
1,609 posted on 04/08/2003 2:56:05 AM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (Rumble Thee Forth...)
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To: Orlando
I have some sneaky feeling we want to keep Baghdad Bob & then he will be OUR spokesman.to their people.

If we wanted to do it, he would have been toast a LONG time ago.

any thoughts?
1,610 posted on 04/08/2003 2:57:15 AM PDT by DollyCali
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To: An.American.Expatriate
http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/qndguide/default.asp?target=Iraq

You gotta check that site out. It is pretty cool. This link is a summary of the day's action. It is nice because there is little hype. I still have not found anything wrong with what they've summarized.
1,611 posted on 04/08/2003 2:58:18 AM PDT by dsmtoday
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To: FireTrack
I'm leaning in the direction of someone who posted above. No Bradley's were visible, but that doesn't mean they weren't there. I think the damage could have been caused by a M791 25mm round.
1,612 posted on 04/08/2003 2:58:20 AM PDT by Tree of Liberty (my cat's breath smells of Cheeto's and marshmallows)
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide
Bush Blair coming up on Fox
1,613 posted on 04/08/2003 2:58:47 AM PDT by DollyCali
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To: hmmmmm
I think we're just touchy. ;o)
1,614 posted on 04/08/2003 2:58:53 AM PDT by piasa (Attitude adjustments offered here free of charge.)
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To: FireTrack
That's what the guy suggested that it was an anti-tank round if it was shot at all. Attributing it to the fog-of-war because he can see no reason to shoot a sabot round at a building and maybe it was a possible reaction to a shooting.
1,615 posted on 04/08/2003 2:59:30 AM PDT by this_ol_patriot
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To: Tree of Liberty
Matches the damage alright...
1,616 posted on 04/08/2003 2:59:49 AM PDT by FireTrack
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To: DollyCali
That's no wind on the Bag-cam. Them's 'splosions!
1,617 posted on 04/08/2003 3:00:17 AM PDT by Tree of Liberty (my cat's breath smells of Cheeto's and marshmallows)
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To: Tree of Liberty
Sky News: US Commander..US Tank fired single round at hotel.
1,618 posted on 04/08/2003 3:01:20 AM PDT by this_ol_patriot
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To: this_ol_patriot
"because he can see no reason to shoot a sabot round at a building"

I can see them using a sabot round to minimize any collateral damage. They knew there were reporters in there.

1,619 posted on 04/08/2003 3:03:05 AM PDT by FireTrack
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To: piasa
The quote which you replied to was an attempt to state that, regardless of whether the reporter is with us or with them - they knew BEFORE they went there what could happen. They believed that what they were going to do was important. To state that the Arab reporter standing near a machine gun nest was "one dumb arab" while "our" reporters are also standing near out troops is a bit much.

I draw no moral equivalence between the reporters who are willfully spewing the Iraqi propaganda and the "free" reporters with our troops (they ARE censored, but mostly for "current intelligence" - not propaganda.)

Most of the reporters in Iraq truely want to be able to report on what's happening - they know they must sign a pact with the devil just for the slight chance that they might actually be able to report something other than propaganda and they do this because they feel that this is important.
1,620 posted on 04/08/2003 3:04:05 AM PDT by An.American.Expatriate
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