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Pericles' Ideal of Democracy
Thucydides "The Peloponnesian Wars"
| Thucydides
Posted on 03/31/2003 7:25:35 PM PST by Mihalis
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1
posted on
03/31/2003 7:25:35 PM PST
by
Mihalis
To: Mihalis
This is just an excerpt and I think it's quite timely.
2
posted on
03/31/2003 7:26:38 PM PST
by
Mihalis
To: Mihalis; LionsDaughter
this is why it is called a democracyHowever, the USA is a REPUBLIC.
3
posted on
03/31/2003 7:33:22 PM PST
by
Jemian
(Ignorance is Blix {LD, You wrote your mother!})
To: Mihalis
Our city is thrown open to the world; we never expel a foreigner....It would be national suicide if the US ever did that.
4
posted on
03/31/2003 7:35:55 PM PST
by
AM2000
To: Jemian
A "Republic" is a different name (and form) of a democratic society.
5
posted on
03/31/2003 7:41:35 PM PST
by
Mihalis
To: AM2000
I disagree. Just look at our Mexican border. Or the Canadian one, for that matter.
6
posted on
03/31/2003 7:43:42 PM PST
by
Mihalis
To: Mihalis
Did Athenian society allow all people to become citizens or just Greeks? Being a citizen allows you to vote and gives you all the rights under the Athenian constitution.
7
posted on
03/31/2003 7:45:01 PM PST
by
Sawdring
To: Mihalis
Noble ideals...but I am afraid the reality was a bit grimmer. On the upside, Pericles was truly elected and re-elected quite democratically (and not every time). On the downside, he did run an aggressive, coercive empire which expropriated the Delian league money gathered for collective security against the Persians in order to grow.
"[The enemies of Pericles were] crying out how that the commonwealth of Athens had lost its reputation and was ill-spoken of abroad for removing the common treasure of the Greeks from the isle of Delos into their own custody; and how that their fairest excuse for so doing, namely, that they took it away for fear the barbarians should seize it, and on purpose to secure it in a safe place, this Pericles had made unavailable, and how that 'Greece cannot but resent it as an insufferable affront, and consider herself to be tyrannized over openly, when she sees the treasure, which was contributed by her upon a necessity for the war, wantonly lavished out by us upon our city, to gild her all over, and to adorn and set her forth, as it were some vain woman, hung round with precious stones and figures and temples, which cost a world of money.'
Pericles, on the other hand, informed the people, that they were in no way obliged to give any account of those moneys to their allies, so long as they maintained their defense, and kept off the barbarians from attacking them..."
-- Plutarch's Life of Pericles
Although Sparta was not a particularly nice place for either Spartan or outsider, it did have a very interesting and stable government whose separation of powers provided the model for the Founders in designing the government of the nascent United States. Athenian ideals, Spartan model...well, it does beat the other way around, I guess...
To: Mihalis; LionsDaughter
Perhaps we're just splitting hairs, but since we elect representatives from our several states to make decisions in our place and do not actually vote on those decisions ourselves, the US is a republic rather than a true democracy.
However, the difference I think is minute as about as relevant as infralapsarianism and supralapsarianism.
9
posted on
03/31/2003 7:49:15 PM PST
by
Jemian
(Ignorance is Blix {LD, You wrote your mother!})
To: Billthedrill
Yes, Sparta did have a very interesting and stable government...just like the Soviet Union did from 1917 to 1989.
Please keep in mind and keep the proper perspective...this was 2500 years ago. And yet, the similarities with our current American system are amazing.
10
posted on
03/31/2003 7:54:55 PM PST
by
Mihalis
To: Jemian
I am tired of hearing about the differences between a "democracy" and a "republic". The American republic IS a democracy.
11
posted on
03/31/2003 7:57:26 PM PST
by
Mihalis
To: Jemian
but we are founded on democratic ideals. The Republican influence was to deal with the known flaws of the democratic process.
To: Sawdring
I believe you had to own land and be a male.
To: Mihalis
Enforcement may be less than what we'd like, but it's just rhetoric (misleading, at that) to say our nation is "thrown open to the world". Clearly, it is not. Oh, and we do expel foreigners. Again, perhaps not as often as you'd like us to, but we do. So please..enough with the rhetoric already.
14
posted on
03/31/2003 8:20:16 PM PST
by
AM2000
To: Sawdring
Yes definitly had to own land and be a male. (I just checked with Greece, really)
To: Mihalis
And yet, the similarities with our current American system are amazing. Absolutely right. And not coincidental.
I'm not shorting Pericles, by the way - brilliant, articulate fellow. A couple of military breaks or the absence of the plague and he just might have pulled the Athenian chestnuts out of the fire in the Peloponnesian war. What is amazing to me is that he had all the characteristics and opportunities of a classical despot and still he chose to stand for election yearly, and actually did lose one. Says a lot for the Athenian system.
I have heard it said that the limit of size of a democracy then was the number of people who could gather within earshot of an orator's voice. Since they voted on the spot I tend to believe it. I think we see something like that in contemporary politics as well, which is a cautionary note for those who would try it nationwide. The Founders knew what they were doing.
To: longtermmemmory
...
I just checked with Greece, really...
You did?.....And I just had Pericles on the phone....LOL!
17
posted on
03/31/2003 8:29:09 PM PST
by
Mihalis
To: Billthedrill
Good points, you have a deep understanding of this whole thing.
18
posted on
03/31/2003 8:32:25 PM PST
by
Mihalis
To: AM2000
...
to say our nation is "thrown open to the world"...
America is the most open society of all time.
19
posted on
03/31/2003 8:35:53 PM PST
by
Mihalis
To: Jemian
And besides dropping terms, your point is..?
20
posted on
03/31/2003 8:44:29 PM PST
by
TopQuark
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