US Marines turn fire on civilians at the bridge of death (Should we believe this story?)

The Sunday Times ^ | March 30, 2003 | Mark Franchetti

[Timesink]

This is from The Times of London, a relatively conservative broadsheet owned by Rupert Murdoch. My question is simple: Should we believe this story?

[NautiNurse]

marines with orders to shoot anything that moved.

doubtful

[kinghorse]

“The Iraqis are sick people and we are the chemotherapy,”

Perfectly stated.

[RAY]

WAr is hell! So Sad, but the troops have to protect themselves.

[Hacksaw]

Next news item: The Sidewalk Of Death.

[parcel_of_rogues]

"Suddenly, some of the young men who had crossed into Iraq with me reminded me now of their fathers’ generation, the
trigger-happy grunts of Vietnam."

Can you say "AGENDA" boys and girls?

[TheLooseThread]

No.

"Pinned down, the marines fired back with 40mm automatic grenade launchers..."

Either they were "pinned down" or they were firing their weapons. Can't be both.

He says they were "caught off guard" but talks about how much time they spent planning the operation. They were concerned about "ambush alley" ahead of time. Yet he argues they were "surprised".

Most of the "meat" of what his points are based on magical insight into what the marines were thinking: "shell shocked"? "fearful"? "unexpected"? He can read mindes?

Could they have shot at cars coming over a bridge in battle, that had civilians. Of course. Did the marines want to kill civians. Of course not.

[Polybius]

A lorry filled with sacks of wheat made the fatal mistake of driving through US lines. The order was given to fire. Several AAVs pounded it with a barrage of machinegun fire, riddling the windscreen with at least 20 holes. The driver was killed instantly.

Yes. It's a war crime.......by the Iraqi regime.

The suicide bomber of a few days ago was not sent out in an Iraqi military vehicle. He was sent out as a civilian taxi driver in violation of the Rules of War and Tarik Aziz praised that tactic.

The Rules of War prohibit the masquerading as civilians precisely because it's use makes every civilian a potential combatant.

How were U.S. forces suppossed to know if that truck driving through When it exploded within our lines? Now thanks, to the tactics deliberatly chosen by Iraqi regime,we can't tell what vehicle is civilian and which vehicle is an Iraqi unlawful combatant.

If they survive this war, Tark Aziz and all those who blurred the line between Iraqi civilians and combatants need to be tried by military tribunal and hung as war crimminals.

[Coop]

I don't find it particularly credible, mostly for the way the author presented it. Just too many things seemed to come across as propaganda for the "peace" crowd.

[expatpat]

The Times in England is a very respected, somewhat-conservative newspaper. This account of an incident which apparently took place about a week ago is probably pretty accurate. When troops see their buddies blown to pieces they naturally become less likely to bend over backwards re civilians. The order you refer to was undoubtedly locally generated in the heat of battle, to save further US lives.

[Timesink]

I'm just curious because this article is making the rounds of the America-hate and RAT sites as "proof of American evil/war crimes/blah blah blah." I figured the hate crowd was intentionally misinterpreting. Now I know they are.

[King David]

This is probably a true story, but even it were just Iraqi propaganda, then Saddam would just be following the instructions of Peter Arnet. After all, aren't we all supposed to lose our will to fight once it's determined that we are targeting innocent women and children?

Arnet has just given a green light to murder even more of his citizens. I hope Atnet is in the way of a smart bomb.

[The Great Satan]

This is from The Times of London, a relatively conservative broadsheet owned by Rupert Murdoch.

The Sunday Times is, or at least was last time I read it, a leftist rag on a par with The Guardian and The Observer. This pieces stinks of Fisk.

[Freedom'sWorthIt]

In WWII, we killed tens of thousands of German citizens, did we not? We had to. It was the cost of getting rid of that era's Hitler. It will cost the lives of likely thousands of Iraqi citizens to free them of the Butcher of Baghdad. So sad but true. We are going up against an ENTRENCHED enemy - and the costs of setting Iraq free will be thousands of dead Iraqi's - many of them civilians. Despite our best efforts, this unfortunately cannot be avoided. This writer, however, has an agenda - as do many who are with the troops. Too bad.

And I have a question about all the reporters who are offering their cell phones for our soldiers to phone home with. As wonderful as that is - is it not giving the enemy location of our troops? (as if they didn't already know most of it - but it seems this is an easy way for the enemy to know where we are exactly.. Shouldn't all allied soldiers be told to NOT be using these cell phones?

[steplock]

Let's see, if there were any weapon, they would have been removed by the Marines. If there were any weapon not removed and in site, this reporter would not have "seen" them.

I saw nothing about the iraqui 'guerilla' style of hiding behind women, children - using them as human shields.

yes, there is a possibility, very slight, of mistaken shooting, but apparantly you people do NOT know about the training a Marine goes through.

The Marines are extremely disciplined and even IF one person fired, the rest would not be firing indiscriminately at unknown targets that were NOT firing back.

[San Jacinto]

Should we believe this story?

It's hard to tell what may be factual and what is made up. It is obvious, though, that the story is written at a very emotional level and is meant to portray a particular agenda. Clearly, the story cannot be taken at face value.

When the more clear eyed depiction of the battle of Nasiriya is told, it will reveal an engagement with light casualties on our side caused mainly by enemy treachery, big losses for the Iraqis, and some civilians killed as a result of the enemy's tactics. It won't matter what color the friggin' sunset was, or who carried what pictures in their billfold.

[Conspiracy Guy]

I can't put my finger on it but something seems wrong with the story. However if it is true I can see how it could happen. Probably a crossfire incident.