America and Turkey: A friendship on hold

The Economist ^ | March 27, 2003

[gcruse]

I had some college classmates like that. One from Israel, a slender ectomorph. The other was a Galloise smoking Bluto from Syria. Amazingly, neither killed the other to the shock of the rest of us. They had some real verbal brawls, though.

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

To say the Turks were worst to us than the French is wrong. IMHO

But what the Turks did, is close to being as bad. Pretty dang close.

Yes, we will still have relations with them, but the long standing respect and TRUST we shared is gone, at least for us it is. Sadly they joined the ranks of the French and the Germans. I would never have thought it.

The Turks should have considered their alleged "good friend America" in her time of need.

Actions speak louder than words.

Our ships sat in the ports for what seemed an eternity. And every time a soldier dies or is captured, I feel angst towards the people I once called our "friend".

[gcruse]

A free Kurd state in Northern Iraq has to be a given. I don't advocate Turkey losing any territory any more than I support a Pali state being carved out of Israel. So, no, I don't support the US losing territory to Mexico.

[gcruse]

I am not advocating Turkey give up one inch of soil. Northern Iraq should become Kurdistan. Do you agree with that?

[Ford Fairlane]

If you think thats fun try working with contract engineers from India & Pakistan - especially when the idiot upper management thought they should sit next to each other because they sort of looked the same

[gcruse]

Okay, I confess. When I moved to Canada years ago, I had no feelings one way or the other about Indians or Pakistanis. Call it bigotry-on-the-job training, but I learned quickly to lump them all together under one sobriquet. My bad. Heh.

[TopQuark]

Northern Iraq should become Kurdistan. Do you agree with that? I would agree with that if this has a 0.5% chance of being practical. Out of the question. As soon as there is any SUGGESTION of such a state, there will be a massive, bloody revolt in Eastern Turkey. No, they will not emigrate to the new state: they will want the Turkish land on which they currently live to be added to the state you propose.

All Turks know that; all Iraqies, and Syrians, and Iranians, and Assyrians --- all know that. Which is why the Turks are so nervous. They are also afraid that we may loose control over the Kurds and the latter will move to establish the state contrary to our demands (this may still happen; do you think we will start shhooting at the Kurds? Turks are right to be very, very nervous).

This is just one of those rooms with an antrance and no (nice) exit that history has built.

Basques are in a very similar position. Considered to be decendents of the original Iberians ("people of the river"), who lived on that land even before the Celts invaded the peninsular, they have not been concured by anybody --- not even Romans. THey have their own language, live on their own land concurred by all sorts of foreigners, and this land is even contiguous. Should they become an independent state, in which case France and Spain should give up that land? Go back to a_Turk's reply, and you'll understand better the refernce to the Basques.

The same is with the our Southwest. Surely it was not always ours. What do you do if it wants to "return" to that previous state.

Whatever you decide on these matters, it up to you of course. But you should not through around your accusations and withdraw amity from the Turks so easily: no number of Armenian and Turkish friends qualifies us to do so. Look more deeply into the problem. Things are much more complex. As I said earlier, history leads you into certain rooms from which no suitable exit exists.

[gcruse]

This does not resonate with our southwest. Give the Kurds a homeland in Northern Iraq. They earned it by being betrayed by us, yet coming back to be allies in the region. Turkey's forfeited my sympathy on their internal problems by....you know the rest.

[TopQuark]

No offense --- and I really mean it, but this position is simply shallow. Firstly, the world does not evolve around us and, speaking of fairness on which you insists, it is not from us that the Kurds should deserve anything.

Ans, secondly and more importantly, you are measuring with a decade-long stick something that has been created over centuries.

YOu should know that times is measures in decades only in America. Europeans measure it in centuries, and Middle East in millennia. So it is wise not look for "reasonances:" read up and gain some deapth on the issue, or withhold judgement. Otherwise you end up doing what you did earlier: through accusations that are immediately seen as baseless.

Have a good night.

[steve-b]

Ultimately, I think the US will patch things up with everybody else and focus its diplomatic and economic retaliation on France, thus dividing the opposition and dissuading anybody else from organizing an anti-American cabal.

[gcruse]

 it is not from us that the Kurds should deserve anything.

                   Wow.  I don't know what happened there 300 years ago,
                   and you seem not to know what happened there 3 days ago.
                   Pleasant dreams.

[Kay Soze]

We need to help our Allies- the Kurds to create a Kurdistan Nation.

[Mortimer Snavely]

Our Friends, the Freedom Loving, Noble, Independent, Inheritors of an Ancient Mountain Warrior Tradition, and Altogether Blameless Kurdish Allies Who'd Rather Be Herding Goats and Living in Felt Tents

This is the same mob that sent a homicidal-suicidal psychopath with a napalm bomb under his clothing into a crowded department store in my old stomping grounds in Bakirköy in Istanbul and detonated it.

Freedom fighters they ain't, not by a long shot. Screw the PKK, and making these noble sounding sentiments about Kurdish independence is de facto supporting these Marxist-Leninist psychopaths.

[Illbay]

Well, wait a minute. The PKK are Marxists, right?

But aren't there other Kurdish independence groups, that are NOT Marxists?

[gettingreal]

Did you hear the value of the oil in that region? Just teach the Kurds how to capitalize on it, open up tourism for skiing in winter, golf, etc., and you have a thriving economy for independent Kurdistan...

[Mortimer Snavely]

Read the link I posted, it's about the best thing I've seen on Kurdish politics.

[gcruse]

After reading the Finnish piece, I'd say the Kurds are just to the left of and politically coherent as Italy. We owe them.

[Mortimer Snavely]

From the link:

"In democracy it is natural that parties disagree. Usually they do, however, agree on large-scale national questions, and in the times of war they act under common war command. For example, the Chechens demand independence before all, and only secondarily come the questions of the country’s future systems of justice and economy. The Finnish Jäger (Finnish freedom fighters trained in Germany before the independence) included Red and White, Monarchists and Republicans. Among the Kurdish parties, such agreement is missing."

You talk about the Kurds as if there was some unifying common concept among them concerning the ultimate meaning of the Kurdish common weal. This is precisely what is missing in the Kurdish arena, and the only disciplined and ideologically cohesive forces are solidly Marxist-Leninist. This makes the whole area a protracted nightmare.

I will be amazed if we can maintain any command and control over them in the New Iraq, especially with all the neat new weapons we've given them. These people have more in common with the Viet Cong, Pol Pot, and Sendero Luminoso than anything else.

[Arioch7]

As I have said before, someone that works for me is Armenian and his father was in the Turkish Navy and he considers himself Turkish.

Thats what he said.

I think that maybe the Iraqi Kurds can have a homeland. I know Turkey does not want that but hey, perhaps the Kurds in Turkey will move to the new Kurdistan as a lot of Jewish folks moved to Israel. I am of course assuming that the Kurds can make a STABLE homeland.

[Arioch7]

Interesting.