How France blocked U.S. in Ankara

New York Sun ^ | 26 March 2003 | Michael Ledeen

[Tamaqua]

By "Neo-con" you mean . . .

Perhaps someone who support the strength and future vitality of the United States of America.

Pardon my abruptness. I just don't, and probably cannot, understand the continuing naivte with regard to "Old" Europeans. Look to Poland, look to Lithuania these are worthy allies. They have suffered because of the weakness of "Old Europe." During that time they looked to US.

I am a simple man. Maybe I'm too simple to hold forth in such august company. BUT. Trusting those who have repeatedly failed you is a bad idea.

[the_doc]

This article is typical irrational Trotskyite origined Neo-Con ravings of secret plots and sub-plots to explain away their failures. The Sun article also leaves a formula in play that lets Turkey off, since Turkey is a vital lynch pin to Neo-Con Middle East designs (Israel-Secular Islam regimes-Caucuses and the 'Stans).

Well, I have heard ravings before...but I'd say that your post takes the cake.

[Charles H. (The_r0nin)]

I post a direct article from Turkey, you post Neo-Con agit-prop from the 25 cent New York Sun fishwrap.

Hmmm. Obviously you are unfamiliar with the term "ad hominem logical fallacy"? Rejecting this article on the basis of that would be as ridiculous as me refusing to...say... take seriously the comments of a poster who has GI Joe paraphernalia on his FR home page. Right?

Instead, I'll suggest that you do some research into who Michael Ledeen is (or even ping him, as he used to drop by FR every once in a while) and re-evaluate your approach. If I've got to judge between his credibility and yours (or Anadolu Agency's, whatever or whoever that is), you'll lose every time. Especially with a screed containing epithets like "neo-con," etc...

[Beck_isright]

Sadly for Turkey, they will be locked out of Iraqi oil production for a generation. Those pipelines can be rebuilt going south or straight west just as easily as the ones going through Turkey being repaired. We will control the Syrian and Lebanese situations before we are finished. And Turkey will once again be locked out of the Middle East and Europe, with the Cyprus problem to be resolved with the help of "their" friends in the U.N.

[Dog Gone]

You're showing patience here tonight. ;-)

However, I caution you that I shall become cross with you, too, if you screw with the Kurds in northern Iraq.

No parachuting today would have been necessary if everyone had been logical about this.

[ontos-on]

We need to get this war over as soon as possible, and then prepare for the next one. North Korea, Iran, then France, Germany, and Russia followed closely by China. Unfortunately I fear it's coming. France and it's lapdogs have all but publicly declared it.

Then you [we] had better get onthe horn to our president. I am afraid that Tony Blair" at this very moment is trying to talk Bush into going the UN route after the war, and while Blair may not specifically want to hamstring us into s___t with French, Germans, Russians and Chinese, he will lead us into a path where the inevitable result will be the same. The French should be taught a very good lesson. I worry whether GW will do this under the circumstances--especially if Blair presents it as something "he needs for his domestic political well-being.

The Blair trip to the UN for the 2d or 18 th resolution bought us the delay [the French planned for us] and the resulting sandstorm and the heat that will be coming.

[the_doc]

But this means that you can't say the article is bunk. You need to get control of yourself [grin].

[quidnunc]

Destro is a paleo-conservative wingnut of the ilk of Pat Buchanan and Taki Theodoracopulos.

the paleo-cons support the French against the U.S.

Michael Ledeen is a respected commentator with many contacts in the middle east.

[MJY1288]

You have a point, The article doesn't deserve the rank of Bunk, How about speculative :-)..... Is that better?

[mhking]

Don't you do anything but post the same silly pix??????

If you have to ask, you do not understand.

[quidnunc]

MJY1288 wrote: You have a point, The article doesn't deserve the rank of Bunk, How about speculative :-)..... Is that better?

What evidence do you have that the article isn't factual?

Ledeen has always seemed quite scrupulous in his sourcing in the past.

[Tamaqua]

To my rudimentary history Turkey has been dithering for almost a century. In 1686 Jan Sobieski, the Polish King, saved Vienna from an Ottoman siege. Today, the Poles stand with us (GROM). What the hell does Turkey want to do?

As my Dad used to say, "Dig, or give me the shovel."

[Beck_isright]

I think Turkey is under the mistaken impression that the EU will come out on top in this world after the War on Terror is over. Sadly for them, they are wrong. Might not only makes right, it makes money.

V

[MJY1288]

What evidence do you have that it is factual?

[OldCorps]

This should remove any illusions of the UN as a benevolent organization. President Bush and PM Blair are making noises that the UN should have a role in the rebuilding or Iraq. We should not give France and Germany the satisfaction of allowing the UN to have a role in the new Iraq.

[the_doc]

I'll settle for that, even if suspect that the article is correct in warning us that Chirac is a lot more malevolent towards us than most people realize.

[cake_crumb]

It wouldn't surprise me if this were true. While Turkey has an obsessively vicious policy of repression toward the Kurds, it's well known and hasn't stopped them from standing with the US in the past. In fact, the Turkish government and military was making noises to the effect that they wanted to control the oil fields in Northern Iraq in order to protect them from the evil Kurds, who's imminent freedom might give Turkish Kurds ideas.

We also know Turkey's application for the EU came up this year. Jaques threatened Eastern Europe with never being admitted into the EU if they didn't shut up, so it's no stretch to believe that France (and Germany) are making the same threat against Turkey.

[ontos-on]

We can invade France on the basis of their weapons of mass delusion which they have developed over decades. These weapons have been used against their own people and been secretly exported to their neighbors and even countries all around the world.

[Bob J]

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[rmlew]

You are correct that many Neocons support the Pan-Turkic block as a counter to the Arab-Muslims, and China.
What is wrong with the idea?