Fox reported twenty-five marines wounded in house to house searches

[duk]

Unfortunately, it sounds like new info (house-to-house). :(


It will take awhile for our troops to figure out that all the SWAT/ATF training is for the birds. If you are taking fire from a building you can bypass it, or use your most powerfull weapon to take it OUT!!

STOP PLAYING COPS & ROBBERS...AND FIGHT LIKE WARRIORS!!

[joesnuffy]

The Chinese are equiped with the new Russian man portable flame throwers...
Too bad we gave up on these...they would save lives.....Ours for example

[Fury]

Did you read Black Hawk Down? (Forget the movie - they minimized the savagery of the Somalies and tried to turn them into the "noble enemy")

I've read the book and seen the movie, both several times :) and I thought the movie, all in all, did a good job and stayed as true to the book as a movie can in 2 1/4 hours.

The conflict in Somalia was very high intensity and I believe in some ways, benefited from the lack of press coverage at the time, if you look specifically at the number of civilian casulties incurred, which had to be incurred, if the Rangers and Delta Force were going to fight their way out of the city. Those folks tried as hard as they could to not hit civilians, but it became, based on what I read, just not possible to NOT hit civilians. We should also consider that many, many of the civilians were willingly providing cover for the enemy forces in the area.

In Iraq, I think this is not the case. There may be some civilians that willingly participate as human shields, knowing that US and British combat doctrine guilds military forces in going out of their way to secure the safety of non-combatants. But I believe that many Iraqis are unwilling participants of human shield cover for Iraqi forces.

Of course, with the press now embedded (which I believe is a good idea), any civilian casulties will be duly noted and reported. But Allied forces may be reaching the point where there will be civilian casulties that simply cannot be avoided, even if those civilian casulties are being put into harm's way against their will by the Iraqi military forces.

[Always A Marine]

What's SOP here for the next guys in line? Throw in a frag or get out and try it another way? If they throw in a frag, at this point are they worried about civilians? I would think not.

It really depends upon the type of building and its occupancy. A multi-story structure is a lot more difficult than a one-story building, and the presence of noncombatants makes it ten times worse. Fragmentation grenades make a real mess when you've got civilians in the way. SOF types use concussion grenades in order to be a bit more selective, but there aren't enough SOF operators in the world to clear a city.

A key objective is to give your holed-up enemy the idea that he has a way out. Once he knows he's hopelessly trapped, he will fight like the demon and will be determined to take as many with him as possible. Clearing buildings is the single most difficult military task I can imagine...

[IIIddontsstutter]

"Clearing buildings is the single most difficult military task I can imagine..."


Our Marine nephew was flown home for a 30 hr. leave a few weeks ago. He was trained for city fighting, and was told there are 8 out of 10 casualties to the troops. He's heading over to Iraq in another week. No fun!

[LizardQueen]

Would tear gas or something like it work, to "smoke them out" without hurting non combatants?

Though everyone would probably freak thinking it was VX. Plus if the Bad Guy had a mask on he wouldn't be affected.

LQ

[Beck_isright]

IMHO, using F-15's and A-10's to clear buildings is one hell of a lot more effective than getting 30% of your platoon shot up. Even using old B-17's to clear buildings is more efficient. But then again, I'm one of those dinosaur baby-killers that the peace queers liked to spit on.

V

[Technogeeb]

Would tear gas or something like it work, to "smoke them out" without hurting non combatants?

Tear gas (CS, etc) is illegal (violation of the 1993 Chemical Weapons Convention, signed by George Bush Sr.) in warfare. Nevertheless, the alternative would be worse, so performing such an illegal act might be the most moral course of action.

[WOSG]

It should be noted that by not hitting civilian areas as a rule, we are in effect rewarding the iraqi strategy ... which means we get more of it. More soldiers dressed as civilians.

We have a luxury of letting time be on our side. that seems to be the british approach in basra. if you day by day degrade the enemy, surround them, you will win with low casualty count.

The embedded reporters are showing how professional and brave our soldiers are. Not that the arab media or NPR give a hoot.

[chuknospam]

It's very difficult to wage an attack against an ensconced defender. That's why if you have an intruder in your home, you should stay put and defend from that position. If you decide to search for the intruder, your odds of survial drop dramatically. Remember the Alamo. Roughly 200 men held off an army of 5000 soliders for days. Same thing applies here, the only way for soldiers and cops for that matter to confront an ensconced defender is with a multi person trained entry team. Having a single soldier doing a house to house search for an armed enemy is a 50/50 chance at the very best odds, but in reality the single soldiers odds are far less than that.

[LibTeeth]

Re: "Tear gas (CS, etc) is illegal (violation of the 1993 Chemical Weapons Convention, signed by George Bush Sr.) in warfare. Nevertheless, the alternative would be worse, so performing such an illegal act might be the most moral course of action."

That's too bad, the stuff works great on "compounds" be they churches or mosques. Guess we'll have to save this good stuff for the war on civilian disarmament when it comes back home to roost.

[Salvation]

Bump for more details.

[Salvation]

Bumping the prayers for all.