[happygrl]

While I remain absolutely confident in God's ability to bring forth good from evil, it's likewise true that I believe He is the ONLY who can do so and I balk at the notion that it's the place of men to perform such alchemy in His name.

Then one could argue that the "two-fer" as you describe it, where socialist, atheist Jews meant the creation of Israel for evil, God also meant for good.

The problem in the Middle East is not just Jews, it is Christians as well, as the destruction of Christian dominated Lebanon shows.

Yes, there is a problem of evil in the Middle East, but its roots lie in the twisted religion of Islam and the literal mental instability that it nurtures in its civilization.

And the problem of evil in Europe derives from the fact that, as a civilization, they have substituted the State for God, and thus have no inclination to wisdom, playing to politics instead of the truth.

[Askel5]

Then one could argue that the "two-fer" as you describe it, where socialist, atheist Jews meant the creation of Israel for evil, God also meant for good.

Well, that's my point, actually. God can bring forth good from an act of evil but cannot purpose the evil act himself. No way he "meant" for the terrorists to kill anyone nor intended this ongoing bloodbath and lightning rod of suffering, intrigue, intimidation and mistrust for "good". In any case ... I fail to see how we can conceive of that notion, even, until some good does come of the situation. So far, thinking in those terms makes God look downright impotent.

Also, I can't reconcile the notion of "atheist Jew". I think once you're an atheist, you are an atheist Soviet, an atheist American, an Atheist Englishman or atheist Israeli but you can no longer call yourself a Jew.

they have substituted the State for God, and thus have no inclination to wisdom, playing to politics instead of the truth.

Agreed absolutely.

As a Catholic, I can assure you that the politicization of the Gospel is always a deadly endeavor ... measured in both lost souls and dead bodies.

I don't buy the connection between Islam and literal mental instability, however. If, for no other reason, than it's the Muslim nations who yet resist most strongly the strongarming of the UN and the United States where birth control and abortion are concerned.

Many Muslims are staunch defenders of life.

A perfectly cynical person (particularly one who has been bent and twisted by decadent post-Christian eugenics and the scare-tactics of population control) might argue they are simply trying to "outbreed" us by retaining archaic laws on the defense of life.

I might argue that any nation or faith which remains true to natural law and respects the work of the Author of Life, can't help but be strong.

That said ...

Islam is at heart a Christian heresy.

Like any heresy, it it decays and results in real injustices and even evil. No question but what Islam is not exactly a religion of peace and indeed has tried more than once to destroy Christianity. (The Crusades make more sense all the time, no?)

But again, like any heresy, it yet retains certain Goods of Christianity which account for its ease of adoption and even attractiveness.

I don't think any objective invetory of the Muslim world fail to note the many real contributions many Muslims have made to mathematics, architecture and philosophy. To write Islam off as mentally unstable is a bit superficial, I think ... as is equating radical Islam with devout and peaceful Muslims. They do exist.

This substituting of the State for God is something we're all tempted to do, I guess. I'm thinking not only of your comments on Europe (many Enlightened having mistaken Europe for Christendom and failed to build their subsequent utopias on solid ground as a result) but also the way our own nation is conning us into tradiing liberty for "security".

It's possible we are placing too much trust in a government which consistently seeks to ban God from the public square (save for when rationalizing a decision to use already-been-killed human life as mulch, perhaps) even as it extends special protections of Free Speech to for-profit pornography -- even Cyber childsex ... so long as it's "faked".

I don't think a Supreme Court which can't tell when a human life begins has any business pretending it has the discerning to differentiate between obscenity and Free Speech.

Bottom line ... I believe we're seeing the Triangulation of the People of the Book by illumined or enlightened atheists -- both avowed and still calling themselves Jew, Christian or Muslim.

... heretofore Christian soldiers being turned into either peace and justice pansies or taking God's name in vain as they stamp his name on less than just wars.

... Muslims being radicalized into militance and turned into terror machines for purely political purpose (CCCP and China worked long and hard at this)

... Jews being co-opted by the State of Israel as authority and arbiter of all things "Jewish" -- rather than obedience to God or faithfulness to the law of their fathers -- and being used to crank the hostilities somehow.

I think there are those who have found it more expedient to use religion for purposes of engendering hate and discord such that the State ends up the Grand Inquisitor and authority over all.