Posted on 03/19/2003 12:48:02 AM PST by RJCogburn
No. Jesus is silent regarding enforcing his will by violence or threat thereof. Certainly, He didn't force anyone's conscience, nor is forcing the conscience of another consonant with the Gospel. But that's a straw man. We cannot know with certainty what God's will is for us in every circumstance. Therefore, it is logically impossible to enforce God's will in every circumstance.
Nevertheless, at the very least we can say with certainty that Jesus accepted civil authority:
Luke 3:14Scripture tells us what earthly authority represents:
Then some soldiers asked him, "And what should we do?" He replied, "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely–be content with your pay."Mark 12:17
Then Jesus said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's."
Romans 13:5-6
"Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing."
Generally speaking, what about the person engaging in unnatural acts? Is he harming his life? Why does he have a "right" to harm himself? Where does it come from? Is his right to life violated? Does the harm to his life, health or soul resulting from such acts represent a loss to others as well as himself? Why does he have a "right" to harm or diminish society? Where does this "right" come from? Define rights.
It leaves moral judgements to the individual and God.
******************************* Contradiction alert *******************************
The Libertarian Party defines rights, thus making a moral judgement, and then defends their definition of "rights," thus imposing their morality (or lack thereof) on others. The Party does not leave the judgement or determination of what constitutes a right to the individual.
************************************************************************************
Does good and evil really exist? If it does, please define both terms or provide a link to a definition to which you agree.
Arguments regarding ethics derive from the First Principle that the good is to be done and evil avoided. (Such arguments are also consonant with divine revelation, since the God of Reason is also the God of Revelation). Read Aristotle and Aquinas.
Wow, so many questions in so little space. Is this leading somewhere?
To answer: The person engaging in the "unnatural acts" is doing so by choice. He may be harming himself. He has a right to harm himself. God obviously intended that he have that capability. else he'd have been created without free will. The right to harm himself comes from his self-evident nature as a free being. He can't violate his own rights. (Should he sue himself?) The things he does to himself may "hurt" others who want something from him. Your contention that he harms or diminishes "society" is just that, a contention. I'm not buying. "Society" is an abstract - the individual we're discussing, while hypothetical, is real.
In your zeal for the philosophy lesson, you ignored my question while citing it.
I'll rephrase - what makes your idea of God's will more accurate than mine?
Who are you posting this nonsense to? It's worse than a strawman. You made something up and then pretend I said it, then debate yourself.
Thank you for admitting that. Hint, he didn't leave you in charge.
Nevertheless, at the very least we can say with certainty that Jesus accepted civil authority:
Your interpretation is used continually and incorrectly by those who love violent authority. The correct interpretation is that he told these people to focus on important things, that they need to look past this world and it's problems and focus on God and the kingdom to come.
And don't attribute things to Jesus that others said, it is off topic and intentionally misleading. Your reference to "scripture" for the last verse is an attempt to blur the question.
See how it works?
I don't. Declaring "up to be down and black to be white" is nonsense, and therefore conveys no meaning. Essentially, you're declaring nothing.
Regardless, God is the God of Reason. Therefore, any assertion regarding the morality of a specific act must necessarily be reasonable.
Me, and many,many others, but I never represented it as anything other than my opinion. You took it out if the context of the exchange I was having and tried to make it look like I was making an unattributed doctrine of some authority. Very disingenious, your many posts lead to the conclusion you are not an honest person.
That is a reasonable argument, but not very inspiring.
You are the Aquinas fan, not me. Post that to someone who cares about it.
This is simple utilitarianism, which is a simply idiotic philosophical system.
Name one.
I label your philosophy as violent theocracy. I think your philosophical system is idiotic.
Your opinions carry no weight with me in any case since it became clear that you cannot debate in good faith but instead continually debate yourself and misrepresent my posts.
God is the Creator of life. It is the prerogative of the Creator of life to take life away. Moreover, since God is just, his acts must necessarily be just and, although it isn't always the case, in this instance, it is not difficult to see why theCanaanites were punished. They engaged in abominable practices:
Two large grottos situated under the sanctuary must also have played a part in this worship. But the most disgusting traces of this idolatry are the skeletons of infants -- mostly new-born babes -- sacrificed to the deity, which at Gazer were found buried in jars beneath the floor of the sanctuary, and elsewhere, especially at Mageddo, in its immediate neighbourhood. Several times the remains of these human victims, among which have been adults, were found beneath or in the foundations of houses and other buildings; a striking illustrations of the words of Jos., vi, 26: "Cursed be the man before the Lord that shall raise up and build the city of Jericho. In [or with] his firstborn may be lay the foundation thereof, and in [or with] the last of his children set up its gates."This should give our pro-abortion society pause.
Why did God also require the killing of the Canaanite children? Again, in the first place, it is the prerogative of the Creator of life to take life away. His Ways are above our ways and His Mind is unsearchable. However, we can speculate, and it is possible that these children would have gone on to commit the crimes of their parents. God would know that with certainty.
Why does God permit evil? That's another question.
Sounds like you haven't been following this thread very closely, because I did name one: namely, the wholesale slaughter of the Cannanite children as commanded by God. Some theists on this thread have been arguing that God is the source of moral absolutes, but I've demonstrated that the God of the Bible obviously considers infanticide to be moral in some cases, which is hardly an example of moral absolutism...
Your argument does nothing to refute the fact that infanticide is sometimes morally justifiable according to God, which is a prime instance of moral relativism. The facts clearly demonstrate that God is morally relative and thus cannot be the source of moral absolutes.
God told me that your arguments are all worthless sophistry. Since His ways are above our ways and His Mind is unsearchable, you have no way to dispute either of the assertions (that I received this divine communication, or that it is an accurate evaluation of your comments) contained in the previous sentence.
Game, set, match.
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