Brian Mitchell and Wanda Barzee charged in Elizabeth Smart abduction...

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[Maedhros]

Brian Mitchell and Wanda Barzee charged with kidnapping, sexual assault and burglary in Elizabeth Smart abduction...

[Sherlock]

The Bible teaches us about Abraham being willing to sacrifice his son ---had him laid out on an altar and was just about to do it until an Angel came and told him not to ----that wouldn't be acceptable to do today.

God told Abraham to sacrifice his son on Mount Mariah, the same mountain God would Himself offer his Son 2000 years later. As they were going up the mountain, Isaac, in his 30s at the time, asked where the lamb was for the sacrifice and Abraham told him that God would provide Himself a lamb, the type of Jesus Christ who would be the pure, spotless lamb of God who took away the sin of the world. Isaac went willingly, he could have easily overpowered this silly old 130 year old man.

After the sacrifice, Abraham came back down from the mountain and only his servants were mentioned, Isaac is edited out of the text by the Holy Spirit as if he had been sacrificed. Isaac is not heard from again until a few chapters later after an unnamed servant travels to a Gentile land and brings back a bride for him, as the Holy Spirit, the unnamed servant in the Holy Trinity, is gathering a Gentile bride for God's son today. This is one of the holiest of the typologies of Hebrew scripture and you appear to have no clue as to why it happened or why it was written. It was in this figure that the bible says Abraham entered into the most holy relationship with God possible, the fellowship of his suffering, His suffering in offering His holy son for the sin of mankind. To use this holy passage as some kind of an excuse for the the polygamy of Mormonism is nothing short of blasphemy.

[FITZ]

The Mormon Church doesn't allow polygamy. I don't understand why so many won't realize that ---I brought up the Bible stories of Abraham only to point out that what was done in the history of a Church isn't what is necessarily done now. No one would get buy with doing what Abraham did even if it was for religious reasons. As a child, that incident bothered me to no end.

[FITZ]

Anyhow I'm not a Mormon ---but neither is Mitchell. I don't see the reason to bash that religion over this case ---that should be a separate thread someday.

[Devil_Anse]

Good points. Oh, I imagine you and I could fill up cyberspace with similar stories. Appy Pappy also made a very good point: he said that if you make sure to hire a known, stable, licensed contractor, that person will just turn around and hire day laborers with unknown records anyway. So true.

Let's see. My painter, who came highly recommended to me by a judge, and by the judge's father-in-law, who was a lawyer for a large insurance company (aren't these people supposed to know what's what), and the painter had a conviction for possession of crack. And a murder case in New Orleans: an elderly woman hired a woman to be a live-in companion, on the recommendation of a church. I'll spare you the very horrible details of that one; suffice to say, the poor lady didn't need a live-in companion for much longer--since she was no longer alive.

It takes more than just avoiding street weirdos, to make sure you're not bringing very scary people into your home to work on it. It was wrong of Lois to hire this nut off the street, but since they had lots of renovations done, sooner or later some dangerous nut was going to be working around their house, almost no matter what they did.

[Devil_Anse]

Besides, talk about ugly!

For the sake of your family, please consider hanging some more attractive "pieces of work" on your wall!

[Devil_Anse]

I saw your earlier posts and didn't bother to go into it with you, b/c I knew you were too fairminded to condemn her once you knew what likely really happened.

Unbelievable, what happened to this girl. I almost feel as though I know her, from reading as much as I could find about her, since the day she was kidnapped. Never, in anything I read in the media, did I find a single indicator that she may have been rebellious, or growing up too fast.

From the picture I got of her, it does indeed sound like she was an apt victim for these two dangerous psychotics.

[Devil_Anse]

I saw a picture of her mother holding a portrait of Wanda that must have been taken in the 60's. She looked quite attractive.

She was supposedly a good mother, early on, to her 6 children. Have you seen the sons on TV? They look pretty together, but it is clear that they are pained by what she has done during about the last 15 years.

She was also a gifted musician, they say.

Severe mental illness is the only thing I can think of to explain this woman's descent. That doesn't mean she'll get off due to that, though. Many a severely mentally ill person is still deemed to have been able to tell right from wrong, and that's pretty much all it takes for a person to have criminal responsibility.

[Devil_Anse]

I think the time period was btw October, 2001, when he worked on their roof, and June 5, 2002, when she went missing.

I've been following it from the time she went missing. The other day I, like you, suggested that maybe he had somehow found a way to get into her head--and of course, if that had happened, that would mean she would have to have met up with him around town or something, in btw October and June.

One minor thing didn't fit, though: I happened to know that this girl seldom, if ever, was allowed to go any place by herself. In fact, there was a nearby school friend whose house she was (for some reason) not allowed to go to a spend-the-night party at.

I was slammed to the floor by two good friends of mine from the Smart threads.

See, I couldn't figure out how he could have held her so effectively, even with his having to leave her with Barzee to go to jail for a few days, etc.

I knew enough of this girl, though, to know that if he had somehow influenced her, that it had been something like a cult leader's influence. That is, if he had "hypnotized" her or whatever, it would have simply been that he had put psychological chains on her--not that, by any stretch of the imagination, she would have liked being with him of her own free will. No way. Not this girl. Yes, they all reach a rebellious stage, but this girl from all accounts had not reached that stage at all. When she would have reached that stage, it would have been only mild rebellion.

All teenagers get rebellious, but they don't all make it extreme rebellion. This girl had enough background that hers would not be an outlandish rebellion.

And after I said that, the next day or so, the charges and probable cause statement came out. That was when I realized that there was no mystery to his control of her--no special Svengali-like ability, no hypnosis, no elaborate tricks. What he did was, he brutalized her immediately. He raped her, then he imprisoned her in a hole in the ground. He kept her there for fairly long periods at first. He also tied her to a tree with a cable at times. He apparently was quite specific in his threats to her life.

She was controlled the same way any crime victim might be forced to drive a hundred miles by a carjacker. They would do it b/c they would think, "if only I just do everything this DANGEROUS person says. Please God, don't make him get mad at me again."

By the time he relaxed his hold a little bit, and maybe she had the freedom to break away and run, by that time, she surely believed that he would either catch her immediately and kill her, or that he would track her down and kill her and whoever tried to help her. He had already demonstrated that walls and door locks were no protection against him.

Something similar happened to a poor lady in her 40's named Alice Donovan. Of course, she wasn't held but a day or so. But she was able to call her daughter. She didn't cry for help when she was on the phone with her daughter. No doubt she was way too scared. They've never found Mrs. Donovan's body.

[Devil_Anse]

Yeti, you give RG back his star!

He didn't mean it that way.

Hey, notice they found it "odd" that Ed appeared in a shirt and tie? Isn't that a scream? Wouldn't you just love to appear in a nice shirt and tie, and have everyone find it odd?

[Yeti]

Yeti, you give RG back his star!

Okay. I meant to give it back to him back when I posted about him meaning elapsed months and me meaning moments of opportunity.

Anyway, I was just kidding when I revoked it. It is not for me to be granting and revoking stars for online behavior. Glass houses and all that.

RG, FWIW, your star is reinstated.

May it shine ever brightly upon you and yours!

[RGSpincich]

Thanks, but the yak ate the star.

Anyway, I think we all agree it is important for Elizabeth to heal by being able to deal with her memories, not avoiding them. Looks like her parents do feel the same way after some reports to the contrary earlier. That's good news for Elizabeth, IMO.

[Devil_Anse]

C'mon, you guys! I hate to see two good posters quarrelling. Won't you forget about that question?

Much more intriguing is to ponder the question: "If I, like Ed Smart, showed up somewhere in a nicely-pressed shirt and tie, would people be saying, 'Hmm... He showed up in a shirt and tie... Something is up...'?"

[Devil_Anse]

WHOA!

On that topic, all I know is that Mitchell tried to seduce a 20-yr-old female shoe store employee into his "lifestyle." Fortunately, according to the story, she was savvy enough to tell him to take a hike.

Please post the article if you find it.

Don't forget, also, that police somewhere in So. Cal. are now again looking into the disappearance of an 11-yr-old named Jaycee Burgos (hope I got her last name right.) Jaycee was seen being pulled into a car in 1991. They said one of the abductors was described by a witness as looking a lot like Wanda Barzee.

[Devil_Anse]

Good article. Thanks.

When hoboes start calling you "too weird," it's time to step back and look in the mirror!

[Devil_Anse]

I think the bar association will again be knocking on this Larry Long's door soon. Any attorney who talks with a POTENTIAL client is bound by confidentiality from revealing the person's statements--whether he and the client end up in an attorney-client relationship or not.

[RGSpincich]

DA, you are soooo behind. We have taken care of our differences on the matter and we even had BBQ'd yak the other day. BTW, I got my star back.

[Devil_Anse]

Yes--Mitchell should have been locked up long ago for raping his step-daughter during the 4 years when she was btw 8 and 12.

But, you know, these pedophiles can be quite clever in choosing their victims. That particular victim had no one but her mother, Mitchell's wife, to protect her. And the mother has admitted on TV that she was far, far too beaten-down (literally), subservient, and naive back then. Where the step-daughter's father was, I don't know.

No one believed the step-daughter and her mother. It was extremely tragic.

[Devil_Anse]

I'm with you, about the death penalty.

[Devil_Anse]

Still got a few brain cells missing, I see.

Keep looking. They've gotta be there somewhere.

[Devil_Anse]

Hello, dumass. Welcome to the concept of "accomplice liability."

Here's an example of a statute that describes it.
Warning: this is NOT the UTAH statute. You'll have to look that one up for yourself. It's probably online.

"A person is legally accountable for the behavior of another constituting a criminal offense if, with the intent to promote or assist the commission of the offense:

1.He procures, induces, or causes such other person to commit the offense;or

2.He aids or abets such other person in committing the offense; or

3.Having a legal duty to prevent the commission of the offense, he fails to make an effort he is legally required to make."

Number 2 is one concept which would apply to what we've heard that Wanda did. Thus, Wanda need not sexually attack Elizabeth herself. She is equally culpable for Mitchell's rape of Elizabeth if she aided or abetted him in committing the offense.

It is a sure thing that among Utah's laws, these same concepts are included.