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Crowd guess depends on who counts (the truth on protest size)
The Oregonian ^ | 03/17/03 | Joseph Rose

Posted on 03/17/2003 7:13:00 AM PST by Andy from Beaverton

 

Crowd guess depends on who counts

03/17/03JOSEPH ROSE

While Portland police showed up in riot gear for Saturday's downtown antiwar march, there was one thing they wouldn't touch: Counting protesters.

Again, it was up to organizers and the media to do the politically sensitive, less-than-precise math problem of estimating crowds. And once again, the numbers didn't match. Demonstrators said as many as 45,000 people showed up. News outlets, including The Oregonian, said turnout was maybe 25,000.

Here's a number from 2,500 feet above the crowd: 14,200.

Attempting to come up with a more accurate count of Portland's fourth large-scale antiwar protest since October, The Oregonian used a sequence of gridded high-resolution aerial photographs to count heads. The survey showed 14,200 people marching from a rally at Tom McCall Waterfront Park into the downtown core at 3 p.m., when the gathering appeared to be at its peak.

Bergman Photographic Services, a Portland air photography company that has been taking photographs for government and private topographical maps since 1975, used a fixed camera mounted in the floor of an airplane that flew over the crowd.

Bruce Bergman, the company's co-owner and chief photographer, said the photographs are so accurate that a government agency was recently able to make a count of a Columbia River tern population by counting the birds' beaks.

The photographs from the weekend march were enlarged, allowing not only a count of marchers but also a view of spaces between them, which is difficult to see during a ground-level scan.

While the number can't be an exact count for the entire march, it does indicate a far smaller crowd than Saturday's estimates.

The Oregonian's count from the photographs included police officers and pedestrians on side streets blocks away from the main cluster of marchers. At the same time, it was impossible to know how many protesters attended only the rally before the march or joined the group later than 3 p.m.

Aerial photography or not, Will Seaman, one of the peace gathering's organizers, was skeptical of the findings. "We have some photos," he said. "We'll do our own count."

For march organizers, a strong turnout helps promote their cause. Seaman said organizer estimates of between 30,000 and 45,000 considered, among other things, the density of the crowd and the square footage it covered at the park during the rally, he said.

Coming up with a estimate can be as hard as trying to count ants running in and out of their hill. An Oregonian reporter stood on the street and counted how many marchers filled a block, then multiplied them, adjusting for large gaps.

The decision of Portland police to stop estimating crowds had nothing to do with war, peace, abortion, trade or saving whales. It was about saving themselves from the wrath of demonstrators.

Sgt. Brian Schmautz, a Portland police spokesman, found giving crowd estimates was a no-win situation. Earlier this year, fed up with being second-guessed and hounded by angry protesters accusing police of demeaning their cause by contradicting their numbers, he just stopped doing it.

"Sometimes people have an agenda and are unwilling to believe anyone who doesn't say what they say or believe what they believe," Schmautz said.

Another of Saturday's organizers, Mike Clayhold, said Portland Parks officials told him that the waterfront park space between the Morrison and Hawthorne bridges holds 70,000 people. Clayhold said the crowd filled three-quarters of that space, which was how he arrived at his "conservative" estimate of 45,000.

Aerial photographs taken 20 minutes after the rally started showed the number of people was closer to 10,000 at the time, with scattered groups of protesters beyond the clumps gathered near the stage.

Sarah Hughes, 23, of Olympia was in Portland visiting her boyfriend's family when she heard about Saturday's antiwar protest and decided to attend. Hughes said the media usually undercount the demonstrators at such events, which she said is all the more reason to add another body.

Asked to estimate the crowd, she said, "I don't know. I can't even guess. All I know is that (organizers) were predicting 40,000."

Roy Bell, 48, of Portland said he thought 40,000 people attended the demonstration. He said he knew what he was talking about because he attended the Million Man March in Washington, D.C. Police and media undercounted that event, he said. He said that in truth, it drew 1.2 million participants.

Ah, the Million Man March: The godfather of modern crowd-counting controversies.

The National Park Service calculated a crowd of 400,000 at the 1995 march. The agency caught so much flak that it decided it would no longer attempt estimates. Recently, a Boston University professor came up with an estimate of 878,587 using techniques similar to those used to count sand dunes in the desert.

In Portland, Pioneer Courthouse Square is one place where it seems everyone can agree on crowd sizes. When it's full, the square holds about 15,000 people, said event coordinator Stephanie Leeper.

Which raises the question: What methodology did the square's main office use to come up with that number? After looking for the answer, Leeper had to admit:

"Honestly, we don't know where that number came from," she said. "It's just been a number that has been passed down." Shelby Oppel of The Oregonian staff contributed to this story. Joseph Rose: 503-221-8029; josephrose@news.oregonian.com



TOPICS: Announcements; Foreign Affairs; US: Oregon
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 03/17/2003 7:13:00 AM PST by Andy from Beaverton
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To: 1John; 1more4perfecteconomy; abcraghead; AlabamaRebel; AndreaZingg; Andy from Beaverton; ...
This is amazing coming from the Oregonian! Can you believe it???
2 posted on 03/17/2003 7:13:46 AM PST by Andy from Beaverton
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To: Andy from Beaverton
"Sometimes people have an agenda and are unwilling to believe anyone who doesn't say what they say or believe what they believe," Schmautz said.

Gee, do ya think?

3 posted on 03/17/2003 7:15:52 AM PST by Izzy Dunne (Hello, I'm a TAGLINE virus. Please help me spread by copying me into YOUR tag line.)
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To: Andy from Beaverton
"....using techniques similar to those used to count sand dunes in the desert. "

Boy ! Now that's an exciting job ! ( must be government funded )

4 posted on 03/17/2003 7:23:46 AM PST by RS
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To: mykdsmom
Interesting...
5 posted on 03/17/2003 7:25:15 AM PST by Constitution Day (** RALLY FOR AMERICA: Raleigh, NC ** http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/861481/posts)
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To: Andy from Beaverton
Allowing protestors to count their own numbers is like allowing Congressmen to give themselves pay raises...oh wait.
6 posted on 03/17/2003 8:08:12 AM PST by PeoplesRep_of_LA (Reagan must have done alot of good to be hated by the left this bad)
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To: Andy from Beaverton
Thanks for the PING Andy.

The Oregonian is part of Saddam's "useful idiots" team. Folks; is there any pro-troops/ FReeper Rallies planned for Portland? Please ping me to it, and add me to the list, if there is.
And, oh yeah...

BOYCOTT THE OREGONIAN!

7 posted on 03/17/2003 8:11:38 AM PST by FBD
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To: Andy from Beaverton
It's time to bomb Saddam!

Let's Roll!
8 posted on 03/17/2003 9:17:26 AM PST by blackie
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To: Andy from Beaverton
The Media Is Lying About The Size Of The Peace Marches (Seattle - Vanity)
9 posted on 03/17/2003 9:19:54 AM PST by Psycho_Bunny
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To: Andy from Beaverton
This is amazing coming from the Oregonian! Can you believe it???

Anything coming from the Oregonian is un-believable. Just when you get to know their warped ways, they try and through you for a loop.

10 posted on 03/17/2003 9:42:10 AM PST by AlabamaRebel (Sergeant, US Army 1978-1985)
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To: FBD
BOYCOTT THE OREGONIAN!

Way ahead of you here. I ain't bought their paper since I acn't remember when.

11 posted on 03/17/2003 9:43:40 AM PST by AlabamaRebel (Sergeant, US Army 1978-1985)
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To: Andy from Beaverton
Gee does that mean that the million man march was really the 100,000 man march?

And does that the "millions" of protestors are really four orders of magnitude less than the 249 million majority that didn't protest?

12 posted on 03/17/2003 9:46:43 AM PST by pfflier
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To: blackie
UN Inspectors are pulling out , I hear.
Looks like "Another 48 hours."
FRegards
13 posted on 03/17/2003 10:24:42 AM PST by FBD (I'm not really a Celebrity Judge... I just play one on the "Black Threads")
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To: FBD
We'll be in Baghdad by this time next week, if not sooner. :)

Let's Roll!
14 posted on 03/17/2003 10:47:15 AM PST by blackie
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To: RS
"....using techniques similar to those used to count sand dunes in the desert. "
Boy ! Now that's an exciting job ! ( must be government funded )

-"1201, 1202, 1203.."
"Hey Fred, we ordered you a number 12 and 15 for lunch!"
"1204...1505...Oh Damn I lost count! 1,2,3..."
15 posted on 03/17/2003 12:45:38 PM PST by ISonnet
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To: FBD
Other Oregon cities had rallies. Newberg, Salem and Bend I think. Not Portland.
16 posted on 03/17/2003 2:13:19 PM PST by Lopeover
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To: Andy from Beaverton
Well, well. What has gotten into the Oregonian. I heard Hannity list the Oregonian as one of the papers that was backing the President's Iraq policy. What gives?
17 posted on 03/17/2003 4:40:45 PM PST by WHATNEXT?
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To: WHATNEXT?
I heard Hannity list the Oregonian as one of the papers that was backing the President's Iraq policy. What gives?

Well, believe it or not, the Oregonian actually endorsed GW for President in '00. (albeit somewhat luke-warmly)

18 posted on 03/17/2003 8:52:59 PM PST by ARepublicanForAllReasons (Marxism is a cancer upon civilization)
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