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Mall Wants to Drop Charges Against 'Peace' T-Shirt Wearer
foxnews ^ | 3-6-3

Posted on 03/06/2003 7:19:50 AM PST by Indy Pendance

Edited on 04/22/2004 12:35:42 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

GUILDERLAND, N.Y.

(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; News/Current Events; US: New York
KEYWORDS: trt
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To: grasshopper2
Unless the message is profane, obscene, or libelous to individuals or groups, then we should protect the expression even though it's a private shopping mall. This is because the private shopping mall *is* our public square.

Nope. Private is private, and only socialists try to blur the distinction. Malls have developed as private enterprises and largely replaced "Main Street" because that's what free market consumers want. One of the things they want is to shop in a place where a private security force enforced stricter standards than are enforced on Main Street.

Socialists tried to make the same sort of arguments about the Boy Scouts, bringing up all sorts of reasons why they should be classified as subject to laws which are only applicable to public entities, and should lose the right to set their own membership requirements, just because they got very big and successful.

21 posted on 03/06/2003 11:34:49 AM PST by GovernmentShrinker
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To: grasshopper2
My point is that there is much more to this story than what is being reported. I don't know of any store that would throw out a customer simply for wearing a tshirt that had a peace message on it or engaging in a conversation with another customer.

How do you know that profanity wasn't used? How do you know that this mall hasn't had problems with these two men before this incident took place?

The mall owner has the right to refuse service to anyone that creates a disturbance in his mall, and yes if you create a disturbance, even here at Free Republic, you will be banned - it is the owner's right.
22 posted on 03/06/2003 1:26:54 PM PST by fellowpatriot
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To: fellowpatriot
If these guys were annoying/harassing other mall customers or otherwise causing a disruption, the mall security made the right call.

If they were only wearing these shirts and shopping, I can think of at least 1,000 other messages and/or images I've seen on t-shirts at our local mall recently that I'd consider considerably more offensive than these.

I guess the mall has every right to oust someone they view as a disturbance (it is private property after all), but it seems like a huge over reaction to me. I think this is one of those things that requires the intellectual honesty test: If these guys were wearing pro-war shirts and received similar treatment, how would you feel? I'd be pretty outraged myself (again, if all they were doing was wearing a t-shirt).

While I think these guys are fools for their opinion, we've got at least 250,000 of our best and brightest ready to fight to the death for their right to express it. Given that, I think the mall's security way overreacted.

23 posted on 03/06/2003 2:28:47 PM PST by Zansman
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To: grasshopper2
For better or for worse, the private shopping mall has replaced our "public square." These men were wearing shirts with a political message and apparently they were thrown out of the "public square" because the private owners didn't like the message.

Aieeeee!

While I think the t-shirt thing is stupidity, your post sent shivers up my spine. Private businesses are private.

24 posted on 03/06/2003 2:33:26 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: jwalsh07
Private businesses are private.
_____________________________________________________

Businesses that wish to remain private can close their doors and keep the public out.

If the business invites the public in so that the public can spend money at that business, it seems to me that all else being equal, the business is offering an implied contract with no reason to believe it prohibits the wearing of a Tee Shirt that is otherwise acceptable in public--particularly if it was bought at the business--and adding such a prohibition after I have bought the Tee Shirt is a violation of that contract.

25 posted on 03/06/2003 8:01:17 PM PST by KrisKrinkle
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To: GovernmentShrinker; jwalsh07
Nope. Private is private

I definately don't disagree. Yet, I think we all should find it troubling that citizens no longer have a public place for political speech. Where *is* the public square?

One of the most precious of our freedoms is our unalianable right to criticize the government and to tell our fellow citizens about it. The internet has done a good job with sites like these to help air national issues, but where do townspeople criticize town politics. How do local watch dogs get the word out to local people that the mayor is scoundrel? Often the local press is nothing more than an ad rag. Government scrinker suggests that main street died because of free market forces. That is not true. Main street was assasinated by local planning boards and modern traffic engineering policies. The malls didn't replace main street because of private security. Indeed, the lack of security at malls will be one of the many reasons why they will die in a few years. Where would you rather be in a fire, in a mall or on main street? How about a gas attack, or a bomb? Did you ever think about how you would evacuate from a Mall. That's a scary thought.

The malls can't hire enough cops to patrol those huge, desolated parking lots. Also, since malls attract people from a large geographic area, they're more likely to have people in them that don't live in your own town and that you'd rather not have your kids associating with. I won't allow my kids to go to my local mall in the evening when they're teenagers.

My town, on the other hand, is a safe community. Now if the planning board would simply relax some of the silly zoning laws, we could actually have a nice commercial center right in my town. Currently, we can't have a nice center because the zoning laws and the county's traffic engineer won't allow it. So if you own property, you con't open a nice cafe, or movie house or shops with apartments on top; even though it's your private property that you own. The only thing you're allowed to build is a single family house.

The mall has a government monopoly, because it's the only place where the zoning laws allow such a concentration of commerce.

Do you still think the mall owners have no obligation to allow political speech?

26 posted on 03/06/2003 8:37:10 PM PST by grasshopper2
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To: grasshopper2
"Disruption" is the key operative here and not whether or not someone's free speech is violated on private property.

In a Milwaukee suburb there were problems at a mall where patrons were being harrased by teenagers. On at least a couple of occasions fights broke out amongst a large group of teens which threatened to get very ugly.

I don't know what the resulting action was since I have not heard any follow-up on the story. But one solution was to institute a curfew on teens after 6pm.

As for this person's right to wear the t-shirt that he had on, to imply that a shopping mall is the ONLY place where political speech is possible is rather narrow. There are plenty of public places he could have used such as a sidewalk, on a road, or in a public park. If I saw him in a mall I would ignore him unless he were to come up to me and spouted forth any of his diatribe.

The public square is not dead; you just have to find someplace PUBLIC to move it to.
27 posted on 03/06/2003 9:04:22 PM PST by jaugust
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To: jaugust
I have no problem with cops arresting people who are causing a disturbance or with teen curfews in the public square or at malls.

I do disagree with you on this statement, however.

There are plenty of public places he could have used such as a sidewalk, on a road, or in a public park.

Sidewalks? Many towns don't have sidewalks. Roads? That's suicide. Parks? Okay, but many parks are deserted, so if your purpose is to communicate a political message, you'll be giving it to the squirels.

28 posted on 03/06/2003 9:17:29 PM PST by grasshopper2
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To: grasshopper2
Do you still think the mall owners have no obligation to allow political speech?

That would be correct. I wouldn't choose to spend my money at a place of business that censors non confrontational speech but I also don't want the government telling me how to run my business or what rules my club can set.

Private property and liberty is a two way street. Public means public and private means private.

29 posted on 03/06/2003 9:21:25 PM PST by jwalsh07 (God Bless the Groundpounders)
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To: grasshopper2
Sidewalks? Many towns don't have sidewalks. Roads? That's suicide. Parks? Okay, but many parks are deserted, so if your purpose is to communicate a political message, you'll be giving it to the squirels

Simply not so. When I want to get my message across in my small town, I take my sign down to the busiest intersection and I stand there.

Schools are public, libraries are public, town halls are public.

My place of business and my home aren't.

30 posted on 03/06/2003 9:23:27 PM PST by jwalsh07 (God Bless the Groundpounders)
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To: grasshopper2
What you're implying here is this person has the right to be heard. He does not. If he wants to be heard then he can go rent a hall for that purpose and he can have others of his ilk listen to him.

He has the right to scream at the top of his lungs if he wants to. But I, and everyone else in this country have the right to close our ears if we want. Or, as in this case close our eyes or look the other way.

Cheers Grasshopper
31 posted on 03/06/2003 9:30:26 PM PST by jaugust
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To: jwalsh07
When I want to get my message across in my small town, I take my sign down to the busiest intersection and I stand there

I'm impressed. That's admirable

The kind of speech I'm referring to is actual dialogue, like the kind you can impagin used to go on in front of the general store, in the local barber shop, in the town green or just walking down the street. The government has zoned out these kinds of public places and they have been replaced with private shoping malls.

I think that since the shopping mall is permitted by the government zoning laws, and main street no longer is, then the mall becomes the main street and is quasi-public.

But this is a difficult question. Does the mall owner by virtue of his zoning permit tacitlly agree to giving certain rights to the public in his space?

I don't really know the answer. But I think this would be a better country if we got rid of the zoning laws and traffic engineers and restored Main streets.

32 posted on 03/07/2003 11:39:44 AM PST by grasshopper2
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To: jaugust
What you're implying here is this person has the right to be heard.

Indeed not. My point is this: the mall *is* the public square and the people have a right to hold and express unpopular opinions in the public square. Not to shout or to be disorderly, but to have the freedom to speak their mind or to wear a t-shirt with a political message.

The debate here has been that the mall is a private place and as such people have no rights.

I say that the mall is different from a private accountant's office or a private residence, because it has received a government monopoly to operate and to effectively replace the traditional "town square" where political dialogue could be held. Do you think your local government would allow you to build a mall across the street from the existing mall on your own property? No way. You wouldn't get the building permit because there already is a mall. Therefore the existing mall is a government sactioned monoply. By virtue of benefitting from the government monopoly, the mall has an obligation to respect the same rights that a citizen enjoys in the public square.

33 posted on 03/07/2003 11:47:44 AM PST by grasshopper2
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To: grasshopper2
Government "sanctioned" is different than government "funded". And besides the mall does not have a monopoly. As I indicated there are many places where a person is allowed to voice dissent if they so choose. And the public square is not dead. I see downtown businesses with public squares nearby everywhere I go, small towns and big towns. And not just public squares but public parks as well. Not having such a place doesn't mean that there's NO PLACE else to go.

I saw protesters near a military installationon on a city street. There will always be someplace to protest so rest easy. If not I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.


Cheers be on ya!


34 posted on 03/07/2003 4:42:11 PM PST by jaugust
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To: Indy Pendance
Serves the mall officials right, the ninnies! Also, regarding whoever initially complained about their shirts, send 'em to me. I'll really give 'em something to complain about!
35 posted on 03/09/2003 5:43:17 PM PST by Tolerance Sucks Rocks (There be no shelter here; the front line is everywhere!)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks
You're soooooo tolerant... ;)
36 posted on 03/09/2003 5:50:35 PM PST by Indy Pendance
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To: Wolfie
there is no more pure journalism but infotainment that is why we have these crappy cable channels and I do mean all cable news sucks.
37 posted on 03/19/2004 7:20:15 PM PST by Afro_conservative
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