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To: ravinson
There were plenty of 19th Century men who could see how wrong slavery was.

One was Robert E. Lee:

"There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race. While my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more deeply engaged for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, physically, and socially. The painful discipline they are undergoing is necessary for their further instruction as a race, and will prepare them, I hope, for better things. How long their servitude may be necessary is known and ordered by a merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild and melting influences of Christianity than from the storm and tempest of fiery controversy.....Robert E. Lee letter dated December 27, 1856:

One individual who claimed that he did not much care about the issue except for the fact that it affected the Union was U.S. Grant:

"I never was an abolitionist, not even what could be called anti-slavery, but I try to judge fairly and honestly and it became patent in my mind early in the rebellion that the North and South could never live at peace with each other except as one nation, and that without slavery. As anxious as I am to see peace established, I would not therefore be willing to see any settlement until the question is forever settled." - August 30, 1863, in a letter to Elihu Washburne

Robert E. Lee was not fighting to perpetuate slavery. He was fighting to protect his native Virginia from invasion.

What was so evil about Lee's vision?

Would America not have been far better off if slavery had died it's inevitable end, in Lee's words, "from the mild and melting influences of Christianity than from the storm and tempest of fiery controversy" which cost a nation of 32 million people the deaths of 600,000 of it's citizens and poisoned racial relations for the next 140 years?

One must also remember that Lincoln signed the first version of the 13th Amendment which called for the perpetual establishment of slavery in order to appease the Southern fire-eaters.

"ARTICLE THIRTEEN, No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State."

So, how are Christian men such as Robert E. Lee and Thomas Jackson supposed to acquire your 20/20, year 2003 moral and historical hindsight regarding the future of slavery in 1861?

The same Lincoln that singed the proposed Constitutional Amendment that would have perpetually enshrined slavery in the U.S. Constitution in the form of the first proposed 13th Amendment is raising an army to invade their native State of Virginia. How are Lee and Jackson expected to equate abandoning the defense of their native State in 1861 to the abolition of slavery?

The reasons men fought between 1861 and 1865 were very complex. Some were honorable and some were not. To judge all men on either side with 20/20 moral and historical hindsight from a vantage point of 142 years into the future is a cheap shot.

36 posted on 03/04/2003 9:57:46 PM PST by Polybius
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To: Polybius
Notice how Robert E. Lee's remarks on slavery were not at all sympathetic to the negro slaves (eg. "The painful discipline they are undergoing is necessary").

Robert E. Lee was not fighting to perpetuate slavery... What was so evil about Lee's vision?

Perhaps that was not his motivation, but he was certasinly not fighting against slavery at all, and he certainly was fighting for a Confederacy that was expressly dedicated to perpetuating and expanding slavery. If he didn't want to fight against his neighbors and relatives, he could have chosen to remain neutral by sitting out the war.

Would America not have been far better off if slavery had died it's inevitable end, in Lee's words, "from the mild and melting influences of Christianity than from the storm and tempest of fiery controversy" which cost a nation of 32 million people the deaths of 600,000 of it's citizens and poisoned racial relations for the next 140 years?.

Those are very convenient assumptions for him and for you, but they are totally unsupported by history. How exactly would slavery "melt away" when it was essentially adding the equivalent of about $100,000 (in today's dollars) on average to the wealth of each Southern family (and much more to the wealthiest and most politically powerful in the South)?

Race relations are not great now due to the toll that several hundred years of slavery and Jim Crow laws in the South have taken, but it is clear that race relations would be much worse had slavery survived any longer. Had the Confederates prevailed and the Northerners not dared to interfere with it, slavery may have continued to the present day, and even if it did not the American South would certainly be a lot more like South Africa (either before or after aparteid).

One must also remember that Lincoln signed the first version of the 13th Amendment which called for the perpetual establishment of slavery in order to appease the Southern fire-eaters.

The president has no formal role in passing Constitutional amendments, and though Lincoln passively approved of that proposed Amendment, you are mischaracterizing its terms, since it did not prohibit any state from abolishing slavery therein. (The Confederate constitution, in contrast, did prohibit any state or territory therein from abolishing slavery.)

Lincoln believed that he could persuade slave states to voluntarily abolish slavery therein. He was certainly quite mistaken in that belief, and fortunately the Radical Republicans did not share his faith in the prospects of voluntary abolition (note that 3/5 of the Republicans in Congress voted against this proposal, even as a last ditch effort to avoid a bloody civil war).

So, how are Christian men such as Robert E. Lee and Thomas Jackson supposed to acquire your 20/20, year 2003 moral and historical hindsight regarding the future of slavery in 1861?

All they had to do was read Tocqueville's Democracy in America, which was published in 1840.

The same Lincoln that singed the proposed Constitutional Amendment that would have perpetually enshrined slavery in the U.S. Constitution in the form of the first proposed 13th Amendment...

His signature would have been a nullity, and even if the states had passed it (which is unlikely given the Radical Republican's opposition to it), it could not have been made permanent.

How are Lee and Jackson expected to equate abandoning the defense of their native State in 1861 to the abolition of slavery?

The original Confederate states seceded (as they explicity and emphatically declared) in order to preserve, protect, and defend the institution of slavery, which they (quite accurately) perceived as being threatened by the rising tide of the abolition movement and the Republican Party. When Virginia joined the Confederacy, they joined that cause, and when Lee and Jackson agreed to serve the Confederacy, they were serving that cause (whatever their personal reasons for choosing to do so were).

Had Lee (or other prominent like-minded prominent Southern military men) stated from the outset that he/they would only serve Virginia and/or the Confederacy if they first abolished slavery, he/they might well have had a very positive influence on preventing or shortening the war.

The reasons men fought between 1861 and 1865 were very complex. Some were honorable and some were not. To judge all men on either side with 20/20 moral and historical hindsight from a vantage point of 142 years into the future is a cheap shot.

I'm not "judging" anyone -- I'm just pointing out some deep character flaws in some of the more prominent ones. Most of the Confederate soldiers probably fought because they were presented with a Hobson's choice to either fight for the Confederacy or be executed as traitors (as many Southerners who escaped to the North and fought for the Union were). Many others fought for the Confederacy because of social pressure (especially from the women) and/or as a result of a fighting instinct that had been deeply bred into them. Many of the most prominent Confederate officers, though, fought with the idea of preserving slavery foremost on their mind (eg. Nathan Bedford Forrest, who said "if we ain't fightin' fer slavery, I don't know what we're fightin' fer").

39 posted on 03/05/2003 1:09:09 AM PST by ravinson
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