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To: u-89
"the point is such a large scale war, series of wars if you will and long term occupations are of such grave consequence that they should be openly debated in congress and in the country. To do otherwise is way too similar to the Roman Senate giving up the republic."

But of course if we spelled out a 20 point plan for regime change by various methods, or whatever form it would take, we would be unable to complete it. Our opposition would unite against us and develop a counter strategy, and the cost to counter that would be unacceptable to our population or that of the world. Many say we already said to much just by naming the axis of evil.

So in the end, the choice is the kind of ambiguous and flexible series of campaign in pursuit of eliminating international terrorism, or appeasement. Our nation and western civilization are unprepared for anything more ambitious.

261 posted on 03/02/2003 12:11:34 PM PST by elfman2 on another computer
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To: elfman2 on another computer
"if we spelled out a 20 point plan for regime change ... Our opposition would unite against us... and the cost... would be unacceptable to our population "

This remark could be rightly applied to the socialist makeover our country has gone through over the last century. If liberals were honest about their plans the public would not accept it. Therefore those who know better best move society along by deception towards their lofty goals for the dumb people's own good. Of course you meant that statement in a wartime context and I am not naive regarding warfare but what is planned by our leaders is much grander than mere war.

"Many say we already said too much just by naming the axis of evil."

Well being that I believe in TR's advice of speaking softly but carry a big stick I have been appalled by the verbose bellicosity of this administration overall. That said the world's diplomatic circles well understood what the president meant when right after 9/11 when he stated "you are either with us or with the terrorists" and the excess verbiage since then I assume is for public consumption.

"Our nation and western civilization are unprepared for anything more ambitious."

This goes back to the first quote of yours above. The question is not just the war against the perpetrators of 9/11 or Islamic terrorism in general but the Bush Doctrine (declared foreign policy objectives) has to be included in this debate. If you take this doctrine plus what we know of this upcoming war and what was outlined in the speech the other night what we have is a world order that is declared to exist, not yet to be created. The world community is not invited to join - there is no opting out- they are all considered under this authority. The US is declared as the supreme leader of the world and no challenge will be tolerated, no move contrary to what we see as our interests will be tolerated and threats are what we claim they are and are not up to foreign interpretation. We will strike with our military to enforce compliance. Basically the old order of respecting national sovereignty is out the window. Nothing from now on is none of our business - the world is our business. That is pretty amazing stuff and deserving of a debate - but I am not sure who or what our representives represent anymore as few seem to think of the constitution, their local constituents or their home state in the old Republic sense of the meaning so congressional action would be no more than a rubber stamp. That leaves the debate to "we the people" though it will have no effect as our fate has been sealed long ago. Well at least we can kick the idea around on forums like this for fun. Been nice debating with you.

cordially,

269 posted on 03/02/2003 2:55:46 PM PST by u-89
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