Misunderstanding The Prehistoric Southwest: What Happened At Chaco?

AScribe ^ | 2-17-2003

[JudyB1938]

The documentary I saw on TV indicated there were knife marks on the bones, similar to butcher marks found on animal remains.

[justshutupandtakeit]

It is fine to disturb the past in order to learn from it.
When ancient cultures are unearthed their study allowed humanity to learn about them. This enriches us all and allows us all to share our common humanity. Nothing disrespectful need be done in this and any remains could be returned to the ground with respect and veneration.

I am not one to worship the past and feel no duty to those who lived hundreds of years before. Nor do I feel the present should be unduly restricted by the past. What is important is the future.

[Question_Assumptions]

And Aliens built the Mayan Temples...

Please, spare me the straw man. Have you actually read any of the books on the subject such as Steven Leblanc's Prehistoric Warfare in the American Southwest? Or are you simply assuming that any analysis that seeks to demonstrates cannibalism or other nastiness must be wrong because you've already decided that your ancestors could never have done such a thing?

I know what science says about the past, I know that their ideas of "civilization" leaves a lot to be desired.

In what way? Because you think they are "Eurocentric"?

Keeley's book deals with sites all over the globe. Indeed, the most striking anecdote about how political correctness has invaded archeology in the intro to his book is about sites in Europe and how any wall around a settlement must be called an "enclosure" and not a "fortification" (even if the "enclosure" is littered with arrow heads in a clear attack pattern) because the conventional "wisdom" is that there was no warfare in prehistoric Europe and thus no need for "fortifications". Later he describes how American archaeologists always discuss Southwestern American ruins as "defensive" and all of the people as "peaceful" without ever asking the obvious question that if everyone was so peaceful, who were they all defending against?

I do not object to all the claims, I object to the ransacking of sacred lands and devices.

I don't think they've been "ransacking" for a while. If you consider disturbing any burial, even respectfully as "ransacking", then I'll have to disagree with you and I'll note that Archaeologists disturb the burial grounds of all peoples and cultures including those of dead white males (see recent excavations at Jamesburg for a good example). Archaeologists often learn the most from burials and to place them entirely off limits is to say that we no longer have any interest in learning about the past. And to claim that any burial in a region belongs to a group even if that group is known to have entered the region long after the burial seems more designed to prevent study than to respect the dead.

I am not one to subscribe to the "peaceful savage" ideal, some peoples definitely were into cannibalism (and not in a Royal Navy way), there are rites and rituals that involve the flesh and parts of humans- these are taboo and evil.

I'm not talking about rights and rituals. I'm talking about killing people, ransacking their home, butchering them like animals, and treating their remains with the same disrespect shown to animal remains. Have you actually read any accounts of the finds? A good summary can be found here. Leaving the bones on the floor and crapping in the fire are not signs of any rite or ritual I can imagine. Might this have been part of a short period of madness? Sure. Could this have been a particularly evil band of people who were not representative of most of the people in that area at the time? Sure. Does any of this mean anything about the current residents of the area who are descendents of these people? Of course not.

I must admit that I get too defensive with this subject. The "ologists" treat us as dead things to be studied and preserved. I don't like that.

They do that to everyone's ancestors, not just yours. You'll notice that they are studying the burials of Jamestown settlers and the bones of those found in the Minitor and Hunley, too. I'll grant you that scientists in the past were particularly insensitive to Native American concerns and weren't showing any respect to remains at one point. But that is no reason to reject all study. And simply because negative stereotypes have been applied in the past in a racist way does not mean that every negative find is simply an attack by a racist researcher.

oh and speaking of cannibalism and other nastiness I know of another religion that celebrates the consumption of human flesh and blood and the brutal murder of it followers (martyrs).

You'll notice that (A) the celebration you are talking about has always been symbolic, not literal and (B) that the people remembering the martyrs weren't the people who murdered them. Frankly, I think it would be silly for you to argue that the cannibalism being found in the American Southwest was a normal part of their religion, like communion is to Christianity. I think you'd be better of thinking of it as a momentary madness by bad people, much more like what the Inquisition or the sacking of Constantinople was for Christianity.

[fish hawk]

I am a Yurok Indian from the mouth of the Klamath river in N. California. One day many years ago my uncle went down to our family burial grounds where all my ancestors are buried and there was a man in there with a shovel and screen box. My uncle asked him what he was doing in there and he said, "its okay, I am an anthropologist from the university." My uncle told him he would be a crippled one if he didnt get his ass out of there right now.
You know the old addage about the Reservation: for each Indian there are 2 anthropoligist and 4 Government Indian Agents.

[NativeSon]

The difference is that while Europeans see skeletal remains as scientific evidence (the soul having long since departed), you see them as sacred. I think this is a cultural difference between archaeologists and Native Americans, and not something in which certain groups are singled out for grave-robbing.

I won't go into how I view remains but you mention the Vikings, Celts and Romans- how many people are Viking, Celt or Roman? I don't mean decendents I mean of those, still here and praticing the same religion, tongue, etc. .

My Nation is alive and well and must deal with these grave robbers today. I know the peoples of Chaco may be unknown but this goes on in other tribes as well.

[NativeSon]

Keeley's book deals with sites all over the globe

I have not read this book since you find it very interesting, I will acquire ASAP.

Let me just say that I enjoy my life and would not want to live "in the good old days". To not recognize the great achievements of the Euros would be foolish and dishonest.

I also know that terms peaceful and warrior did not go together well.

I was not trying to draw a line between Christianity and cannibalism I was trying to annoy. We all know that in the past things were brutal, I do not argue or defend that. It is just that this type of "find" is often used as justification to do more digging- literally.

[NativeSon]

I am a Yurok Indian from the mouth of the Klamath river in N. California.

I am born of the Dine' (I'm skipping the Clans here). Your uncle recognized a grave robber when he saw one.

You know the old addage about the Reservation: for each Indian there are 2 anthropoligist and 4 Government Indian Agents.

That's too funny, you only hear this from Indians. Thinking about this a little more makes me wonder if its not the difference in how we (as peoples) perceive time and our relationship to the world (not in a corny hippie way)?

[Miss Marple]

Well, in some cases you are correct. In other cases, however, archaeological digs have been done on cultures whose descendents are still in the same area practicing the same religion. China is an example I can think of off the top of my head, along with certain Medieval digs in England.

I am not an expert on this, and I simply wanted to point out that I don't believe people are singling your group out particularly, although I grant that if it were MY ancestors' cemetery being studied, I might have a less dispassionate view of the whole thing. So I guess you have made a good point.

I have a question: do they keep skeletal remains permanently, or simply study them and then rebury them? I think most information could be gained photographically and with X-rays, and then return the body to its burial site. (What am I thinking...there are Egyptian mummies in almost every large museum in the country. Nevermind.)

[Miss Marple]

If you are Dine I understand your position a bit more clearly.

[NativeSon]

If you are Dine I understand your position a bit more clearly.

Yes, how I view/hold the dead and the past, etc. is quite different. The subject of Chaco being left alone is very import to the Dine'.

[SunkenCiv]

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[Monkey Face]

Seems a lot of the hitherto “ancient peoples” were into cannibalism. And why should the Americas be different from island nations? Or head-hunting tribes on other continents?

It wasn’t “America” until white men came here. (Think about it...[as Benny Hill would have said]...)

[ThomasThomas]

So basically there government got too big and powerful. The leaders in the government tied to take the wealth for themselves and this destroyed the society. Where have I seem this lately? Hmmm...

[Ripliancum]

Ah yes, gotta love that meat.

[bert]

I’ll take the resurrection of this thread as a propitious sign

Yesterday we took down the map of our last years Texas wanderings and put up the map of the recent trip to the Gulf Coast and the Indian Country Map. The Indian Country map will allow planning for our trip next September ‘11. Right now it has only two pins..... Chaco and Canyon de Chelly

Also, I think that by now there are new Steve Lekson books expanding on his work The Chaco Meridian.

[Monkey Face]

Long pig - the other white meat.

[blam]

Check out the Zuni's whule you're out that way:

The Zuni Enigma

[Ripliancum]

Speaking of the other white meat. Here's another that shows the mixed races in ancient american cannibalism.

[jetson]

[Monkey Face]

No surprise, actually, when one has studied the ancient cultures of the Americas.

Thanks for posting the pics. :o]