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many points are being left out here, it is not the man in the fight, it is the fight in the man.

As a bouncer, I faced mostly drunks, no real fighters. Stand-up fights were rare, but the traditional fighting training styles (Kempo; Shotokan; TKD) all came into play for having the precense of mind to step aside or block, but the real problem was solved when you stepped in and gave the guy one whether he got one in on you or not.

As for Muy Thai being a better fighting style, that depends on whether the TKD guy trains to fight for real or for tournement. Muy Thai fights for real all the time, while TKD is the new 'Gentleman's Martial Art' sport style, not done for fighting, really, but if youknow how to kick, and a decnt TKD guy does, if he has heart, I would place even money on the guy. Again, that is because the Muy Thai guy trains for battle, not tournement. If the TKD guy trainsed like his front teeth depended on it, he would do well against a Muy Thai guy.

My times in the bars fighting was doen from a standing start, to a grapple take out, and the occasional takedown, wrestle for top position, then a hair grab out the door with an arm bar.

I was especially impressed with Hapkido and the joint lock techniques, all the punches and kicks of TKD with all the techniques of Juijitsu added in, just when were you supposed to master all this?? :)

I disagree that a TKD practitioner aint good enough to fight most stand-up fighters because of 'flashy kicks'. I know some guys that blew the roofs off the Karate guys, whether Shotokan or Kenpo or Kempo or whatever, it depends on the school and the individual. I know guys that threw kicks faster than 99% of any punches I ever saw thrown, and with great accuracy, too. And I did some boxing for a while, too, these TKD kickers were fast, it is just the 'style' that TKD has become, a sport, not a combat art intraining.

If the training of the student is centered on fighting and genuine self defense, TKD is awsome for kicking and punching, but if the instructer is concerned in having a 'family martial arts center', then you aint gonna get that!

If I could only change the mental aspect of what I have learned in TKD, I would gladly face a Muy Thai guy in the ring, (back in the day, anyways!) The difference is in HOW you are trained to fight, not how you are trained to throw punches and kicks.

A good, trained martial artist that knows how to throw a good punch, block correctly, and kick, can be a superior fighter only if he has the heart to be so, not dependant onthe style he was trained in. For standup fighting, TKD is an excellent system. Tai Chi has some great counters to it! And, Hapkido adds the all-round joint locking and takedowns.

All that being said, the ground fight IS where almost all of it ends up! The ultimate fighting I have seen, not too many by the way, has been to rules. A street fight would not go on as long.

There is no way I could beat any of the Gracies now, nor back then, either, but I did used tobelieve I could have held my own against Bad Brad Hefton...back in the day, that is... :)