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To: bigunreal
I think the historical record, and not just wishful political party thinking, reveals that Lincoln was the first "big government" president.

He was the first president forced to use the power in the Constitution, that's all.

There is very little difference between what Washington, Madison, Jackson and Lincoln thought about the nature of the Union.

"The conduct of S. Carolina has called forth not only the question of nullification; but the more formidable one of secession. It is asked whether a State by resuming the sovereign form in which it entered the Union, may not of right withdrasw from it at will. As this is a simple question whether a State, more than an individual, has a right to violate its engagements, it would seem that it might be safely left to answer itself. But the countenance given to the claim shows that it cannot be so lightly dismissed. The natural feelings which laudably attach the people composing a state, to its authority and importance, are at present too much excited by the unnatural feelings, with which they have been inspired agst. (sic) their bretheren of other States, not to expose them, to the dangers of being misled into erroneous views of the nature of the Union and the interest they have in it. One thing at least seems to be too clear to be questioned; that whilst a State remains within the Union it cannot withdraw its citizens from the operation of the Constitution & laws of the Union. In the event of an actual secession without the Consent of the Co-States, the course to be pursued by these involves questions painful in the discussion of them. God grant that the menacing appearances, which obtrude it may not be followed by positive occurrences requiring the more painful task of deciding them!"

-- James Madison

The secessionists were dishonorable bums.

Walt

198 posted on 02/10/2003 5:37:52 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa (To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
I appreciate the detailed posts in support of your views. We just have a disagreement over the basic principle of consent of the governed. With all due respect, I think your opposition to the Confederates is firmly connected to your understandable detestation of slavery. I share your aversion to slavery, but I strongly believe that any people, anywhere, have the right to choose their own government. It's as simple as that. Whether they owned slaves or not, the southern states who seceded from the union were declaring their lack of consent to be governed by that union any longer. I grant them that right. Why don't you?
223 posted on 02/10/2003 8:53:33 PM PST by bigunreal
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