Posted on 01/31/2003 7:02:53 AM PST by rface
Edited on 04/13/2004 2:09:04 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
It was to have been a celebration of poetry at the White House, but it looks as if it won't happen any time soon.
Late Wednesday, the office of Laura Bush announced the postponement of a Feb. 12 symposium on poets Walt Whitman, Emily Dickinson, and Langston Hughes after Sam Hamill of Port Townsend, Wash., one of the invited poets, urged the others who had been invited to protest the looming war with Iraq at the event.
(Excerpt) Read more at boston.com ...
Absolutely. I think he is very underrated, especially his later short stories. George Orwell grudgingly praised him, but missed the whole point . . . Kipling is "brutal" and "conventional" because that is the truth.
Are you a Kipling poetry fan or a short story fan? (I'm both, but if I had to choose I'd go with the stories.) Favorites?
Oh, really? Even as shocked as they were by the American Civil War's horrific carnage, neither Walt Whitman nor Emily Dickenson suggested appeasing the Confederacy. They were unswervingly supportive of the Union cause and of Lincoln.
Copyright 2003 All Rights Reserved
?????
Maybe I'm being particularly dense (or it's particularly late and I just got back from dog agility class -- my dog is far more agile than I) . . . but to what are you referring?
More haiku to celebrate the Appeasement Poets....
Laura Bush reads poetry
Poets say no War for Oil!
Baghdad's radiant glow.
Leonardo must Write,
Evil Cowboy kills Children!
Crayolas are used.
Martin Sheen's anger
Is stoked by Evil Texan.
Birkenstocks hurt corns.
Be Seeing You,
Chris
These lefty pinkos can
Blankety blank.
No, you aren't dense. I'm sorry for my vague reply. What I meant was, you seem to love poetry and short stories. So do I. I write short stories and read poetry because poetry is the purest form of writing. Many contemporary poets and short story writers feel that this war is morally wrong, especially the Bush doctrine of preemption. Writers look at this thing through more facets than do most people who are concerned with politics. They look at things through more facets than most people period. They do this when they write, and they get accustomed to doing it. Most serious artists involve themselves with the human condition, sometimes to such an extent that they don't fit in well with the mainstream of society watching the evening news, for instance. So they get called all kinds of names, and people make fun of them (especially when it comes to politics). But many years later it often happens that what they were saying at the time was true. I shouldn't have said that you have to choose, and for that I apologize. But I do think that you might take a closer look, since you love poetry and short stories. The practiced levels of perception that artists acquire--the details they notice and process--these are important. I'm glad you don't dismiss them out of hand and make fun of them the way some posters in this thread do.
While what you say about "real" poets is true - those who are genuinely moved by a poetic impulse and struggle to make that difficult craft their own . . .
. . . a lot of these so-called "poets" are simply people who have found that adopting a radical attitude and some sort of "marginalized" status - i.e. feminist, black power advocate, etc. - is an easy meal ticket. Just look at the spoutings by that so-called "N.J. Poet Laureate" at the top of this thread. I called it logorrhea, and that's really what it is -- just undisciplined (and FAR too long) gouts of words excreted more or less at random.
That's not poetry. And I have nothing against free verse per se - it just has to have SOME sort of structure.
Danegeld
(A.D. 980-1016)
IT IS always a temptation to an armed and agile nation,
To call upon a neighbour and to say:—
“We invaded you last night—we are quite prepared to fight,
Unless you pay us cash to go away.”
And that is called asking for Dane-geld,
And the people who ask it explain
That you’ve only to pay ’em the Dane-geld
And then you’ll get rid of the Dane!
It is always a temptation to a rich and lazy nation,
To puff and look important and to say:—
“Though we know we should defeat you, we have not the time to meet you.
We will therefore pay you cash to go away.”
And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
But we’ve proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane.
It is wrong to put temptation in the path of any nation,
For fear they should succumb and go astray,
So when you are requested to pay up or be molested,
You will find it better policy to says:—
“We never pay any one Dane-geld,
No matter how trifling the cost,
For the end of that game is oppression and shame,
And the nation that plays it is lost!”
Now, based on this thread, you can't really defend that. "A lot" ?? Show me. Most contemporary poets today don't want this war, it's true. I don't want it either. But that doesn't mean they're bad poets or living off of politics. Ursula K. Le Guin isn't exactly a bad writer. Adrienne Rich? W. S. Merwin? It's true that Rich delves into the "political," but that's because she is who she is. It was a natural thing for her to do. This happens with most artists. Critics pick up on these things sometimes and write about them.
Just look at the spoutings by that so-called "N.J. Poet Laureate" at the top of this thread. I called it logorrhea, and that's really what it is -- just undisciplined (and FAR too long) gouts of words excreted more or less at random.
Are you talking about Baraka? I looked a the top of the thread but couldn't figure out which poet you meant.
That's not poetry. And I have nothing against free verse per se - it just has to have SOME sort of structure.
What do you think of this poem? -- http://www.holysmoke.org/fem/fem0207.htm
The most obvious flaw is the blurring of language, from brief attempts at ancient grandeur to modern slang. Difficult to do, and must be done distinctly. Robert Fagles' beautiful free verse translation of the Iliad is an example of how it can be done.
The greatest danger of "free verse" is the tendency to ramble. At some point what is presented as "poetry" becomes a mere essay, because it loses the essence of poetry - a distillation of meaning into few words. This poem could be shortened substantially and still convey its meaning. Needs an editor.
Regardless of the genre - rock, jazz, classical, whatever - there is still an issue of intrinsic musicality and merit. There are good and bad musicians of every stripe. I'm classically trained, but I can appreciate good jazz or good rock performed by good musicians. You know it when you hear it. And objectively "bad" music - anything from "just noise" to banal, trite melodies with unimaginative harmonies - is fairly recognizable too.
There are plenty of folks in the music world riding a temporary wave of popularity based on matters other than musical merit - there always have been - and sometimes they obscure the "real" musicians.
The "hundred year rule" weeds 'em out pretty effectively, and we're getting close on some of the early jazz now. It will be a little longer for rock.
The concept of Lilith as a pagan alternative to Eve, however, has definitely been coopted by the most radical sect of feminists.
The table of contents looks interesting. I would have to read before commenting. Surprised, however, that Sojourner Truth is missing (I vastly prefer her to Ms. Tubman).
. . . and I'm convinced, BTW, that Lizzie Borden DID murder her father and stepmother, but beat the rap because the conventional middle class jurors just couldn't believe a gently nurtured female could do such a thing.
Understood. It was worth noting to point out that the website concerns itself with feminism and chose the poem. The poet might be "feminist" in the current sense of the term (for those who like to classify those things), but I hasten to point out that it's not a political point with her. She's interested in lives of other women.
The concept of Lilith as a pagan alternative to Eve, however, has definitely been coopted by the most radical sect of feminists.
?? I don't know much about that except that the story of Lilith is very old. Pamela had access to a library that would make literary historians swoon--not just at the university, but a private library that a university would no doubt like like to buy--if one hasn't by now.
The table of contents looks interesting. I would have to read before commenting. Surprised, however, that Sojourner Truth is missing (I vastly prefer her to Ms. Tubman).
Yes, they are interesting. The historic women for the subjects of these poems, I understand, were chosen for the possibilities they presented for the poet. Again, it's a lot like music or any other art. So Box Car Bertha's in there too. It's really delightful. The treatment in the Tubman poem is beautiful and moving, but there's drama in there, and some humor too.
. . . and I'm convinced, BTW, that Lizzie Borden DID murder her father and stepmother, but beat the rap because the conventional middle class jurors just couldn't believe a gently nurtured female could do such a thing.
You should definitely read that poem then! "The Terrible Memory of Lizzie Borden" is not about how terrible our memory is of that incident. It is the portrayal of a woman with a *terrible memory*. The poem outlines all of the things she forgets in exactly what you describe. She keeps forgetting things and that's how she screws up.
One of the poems I was very taken with--not in this collection--was one about Carrie Nation. It was hysterically funny and intriguing. All of the details are there. This woman really takes you away when you read her poetry.
What short stories do you like? I promise not to bring up any short stories for you to "judge"; I just love talking about them. I write them. The short story is a neglected form these days.
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