The Passion of Mel Gibson

Time Magazine ^ | 01/27/03 | RICHARD CORLISS; JEFF ISRAELY

[what's up]

OK...finally some good info from you. I posted the link before I saw your post.

By the way, it's not helpful for you to use words like "rant" and "foolish" if you want to be taken seriously.

My point was if Catholics desire to maintain Latin in the Mass (as the poster above maintains) because they associate it with sacred worship these same Catholics might in my mind want the Bible to still be Latin. Why one and not the other?

[RetiredArmy]

@ post 22, nice photo.

"Sons of Scotland! I am WIlliam Wallace - and I see a whole army of my countrymen here in defiance of tyranny. You've come to fight as free men, and free men you are. What will you do with that freedom? Will you fight? Aye, fight and you may die. Run and you'll live. At least ahile. And, dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom!"

[ArrogantBustard]

Four reasons for maintaining the Mass in Latin (IMO): 1: It's the same everywhere. This is the Catholic Church.
2: The Sacred Worship thing.
3: Vocabulary necessary to understand the Mass in Latin is small. As opposed to understanding the Bible in Latin, which would require a huge vocabulary.
4: Meaning of words in Latin doesn't change.

Incidentally, even at a Latin Mass, the Bible readings are in English (or whatever the local language is).

BTW, in the Fourth Century Roman Empire, the local languang was ... LATIN! For which reason the Church had the Scriptures translated from Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic to ... Latin.

[hardhead]

Mel has the cojones of Benjamin Martin.

[what's up]

Yes, I know the prevailing tongue in 4th century Rome was Latin...per my comment above that the Latin mass is said in the language of the Caesars. If the Church had wanted a language rooted in sacred history they could have created the mass in Greek and Hebrew, the Biblical languages...interesting they chose their OWN tongue so it could be understood!

I have never before considered your point that the amount of Latin knowledge would have been small for the mass compared to the amount needed for reading the Bible.

However, converts still have to learn some new language if they wanted to worship God in a Latin mass. Perhaps this is why Vatican II decided to change...perhaps too many Africans and Asians converting and not liking that they were not able to comprehend what they were saying?

[lawgirl]

If it's hard for the actors to speak their lines, it will be a challenge for the audience too: Gibson wants to show the film without subtitles. "The audience will have to focus on the visuals," he says. "But they had silent films before talkies arrived, and people went to see them."

I understand this, but I am not all about it. But kudos to Mel and Jim. I adore them both and have been watching them for a long time.

[The Right Stuff]

I just read something interesting on the translation of the OT into Greek from Aramaic - supposedly there were 72 rabbis sequestered on some island, they each worked on a translation and they all supposedly ended up exactly alike - word for word.

Or, something like that.

[Clintons a commie]

What you say is extremely true...but having the mass in Latin, the language of the Caesars, won't help.

It didn't seem to hurt the Church from the time of Pope St. Damasus(4th Century) until 1967.

[Paulie]

Although it wasn't directed at me, I definitely appreciated your explanation of latin's spiritual, culture and intellectual value to Catholics and the Church. It was informative and instructive Thanks.

[what's up]

Actually, it was hurting the Church, which is why they gave it up.

Ever since the Renaissance, the study of the classical languages was becoming more and more prevalent. People were becoming aware that there was nothing holy about Latin, just as there was nothing holy about Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic or any other classical language.

Since this was becoming common knowledge, the Catholic Church was on the defensive. They didn't want the Mass or the Bible in the common tongue.

Over the years, however, and because of dwindling numbers, they changed their tune.

[what's up]

It's called the Septuagint.

Interesting story.

[Dionysius]

It isn't so much that the mass is said in English (which can be a noble language), but they say it in baby talk!
"Dora the Explorer" is more profound and uplifting.

[Shooter 2.5]

Monica Bellucci is in this movie?? Wow!

She was the Italian in "Brotherhood of the Wolf".

[what's up]

I agree. That problem seems prevalent in all churches, Catholic and Protestant.

[ALOHA RONNIE]

...Our 1st JOHN WAYNE sat out World War II while magnificiently spurring on our Troops out there in his stead thru the Motion Picture Medium =

...Our 2nd JOHN WAYNE in a new -Time of War- in a new Century with an Enemy that is now just around the Corner and up your Street =

...A GOD-Loving MEL GIBSON.

[Joy Angela]

MEN OF GOD

Mel Gibson and President Bush

[demkicker]

"Rest assured, Mel will have subtitles."

You must have missed this part:
Gibson wants to show the film without subtitles. "The audience will have to focus on the visuals," he says. "But they had silent films before talkies arrived, and people went to see them."

I do hope Mel changes his mind. I fear today's spoon fed crowds won't sit still for a film based on visualization alone, and I'd love to see it become a blockbuster. Besides, it would be a missed opportunity for those who don't know the story, to learn it well by understanding what is being said.

I may be in the minority here, but I wish this film would be produced in English. Even if he does decides to use subtitles, I dread having to race-read for an entire film.

[sheik yerbouty]

I don't think he can market it without subtitles. The studio might , in the end, insist on it.

[wideawake]

However, disgruntled Christians who were being treated in a condescending manner by their leaders wanted to understand the truths of God a few centuries ago, not just recite them like a parrot or follow after a leader because he/she can orate in Latin.

In point of fact, there were two enormous religious orders of the Church, the Dominicans and Franciscans, who were dedicated to the work of preaching from the Scriptures in the vernacular tongues of Europe. The sermon from every pulpit was in the vernacular as well.

The disgruntlement was due to a desire to disobey, not due to any hatred of Latin. Every reformer knew how to read Latin as well as they knew how to read their own tongue. Calvin wrote his sermons in Latin and his famous Institutes were also written and poublished in Latin.

Luther's major works of Scripture commentary and doctrinal argument were written in Latin as well.

Here's a newsflash - the number of people who could read and the number of people who could read Latin in early modern Europe were almost identical. To have any education at all at that time meant knowing the Latin tongue.