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we must be careful how we interpret what the Chinese say and do, and why they do what they do.
1 posted on 01/09/2003 8:59:42 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: soccer8; Enemy Of The State; tallhappy; belmont_mark; Brian Allen
bump this and comment.
2 posted on 01/09/2003 9:00:50 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: maui_hawaii

Do the math donating to FR today is the Smart thing to do!


3 posted on 01/09/2003 9:01:09 PM PST by chance33_98 (Praise the Lord and pass the donations!)
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To: JohnHuang2
comment?
5 posted on 01/09/2003 9:08:27 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: *China stuff; *china_stuff; *Clash of Civilizatio
http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/bump-list
6 posted on 01/09/2003 9:11:12 PM PST by The Obstinate Insomniac
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To: maui_hawaii
I believe the Chinese could end this tomorrow by making a few phone calls to senior NK generals to communicate that Kim has to go. That they do not do this means that Kim's actions are OK with them. Red China gains from a divided Korea. The crazier NK is, the more reasonable the ChiComs appear to be. Always remember--the PRC is not an ally, not a friend. They are our chief rival in the world.
7 posted on 01/09/2003 9:12:27 PM PST by maro
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To: maui_hawaii
Oh, no, they are much more practical people than this. It is not ideology, nor wanting another country (rather than province?) that agrees with them. They could annex the place tomorrow if they wanted to. But it is more useful to them as a "renegade" proxy than it would be as part of China - even though they would certainly govern it better than the present regime does (not exactly hard).

No, see, they want NK for arms length plausible denial when they want to do something that cannot be defended in public, without taking the heat for it or compromising relations (especially trade) with the west. If they want to send missile or nuclear tech to somebody, they just give a nod and pass it through NK. If they want to kidnap people or blow up airliners, the NKs do it, the Chinese say they are against it but do nothing to rein in NK.

If they want to lob missile over Japan, or hold people up for monetary tribute, they let their proxy do it. If they ever want to fire a nuke at the US, or smuggle one here, or sell one to Islamic terrorists, they won't do it direct and risk a return address of "Peking" - they will let NK do it, providing whatever tech, support, money, diplomatic cover etc is actually required.

NK is simply a criminal front organization for China's illegitimate state interests. It works perfectly, too. They are sending NK technical materials right now to allow NK to extract plutonium from reactor fuel, thus directly furthering nuke proliferation. But nobody calls them on it, because they say one thing and do another. NK might get blamed - allow appeasement runs rampant even there - but nobody would dream of consequences for China for the present nuke flap. Why, they are so indispensable, after all. Can't possibly afford to upset them.

It is the simplest sort of indirection and dodge. The amazing thing is simply that there are people gullible enough to fall for it. Or bought enough. Or who prefer a Chicom win in the long run.

10 posted on 01/09/2003 9:22:21 PM PST by JasonC
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To: maui_hawaii
Lips and teeth bump.

Deniable sock puppet bump.

August 1998 NK threw a Taepodong over Japan--oops.

The 94 shuck and jive kept alive by Madeliene the Hutt.

Now comes the NK ambassador to try an end run around Richardson.

The local radio host said Richardson would take ambass to topless club; cohost said ambass brought golf clubs, would defect.

NK remains an accessory to China's four goals:

1) US out of Asia;
2) Absorption of SoKo;
3) Absorption of Taiwan;
4) Neutralized Japan.

Hu and Jiang have not "mellowed"; Communism is not being replaced by Capitalism.

China's fanatic nationalism is akin to the mental illness of Hitlerism.

Kim is coo-coo and Jiang's organ-grinder monkey--

While entertaining Uday Hussein, in on a salesman's road trip to cut a deal.

The 1984 mind control efforts of the ChiComs make it clear--they don't want no stinkin' democracy anywhere in the world.

11 posted on 01/09/2003 9:25:56 PM PST by PhilDragoo
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To: maui_hawaii
I've read other reports that China and NK are not so buddy-buddy. Millions of starving NK's stream into China at an alarming rate and this has caused recent "border incidents" with Chinese and North Korean soldiers.

China may be "egging" on the NK's but I doubt it goes any further than that.

13 posted on 01/09/2003 9:29:36 PM PST by stuck_in_new_orleans
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bump for later reading
17 posted on 01/09/2003 9:47:18 PM PST by Aaron_A
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To: maui_hawaii
Two more things to throw into the discussion:

1. Russia's relationship with N. Korea remain close, even with the Soviets out of power.

2. More importantly, S. Korea is China's number 3 trading partner. Whatever their strategy is, they need to safeguard their relationship with the South.

My personal theory: The CCP knows that its hold on power is based on maintaining the economy. An unstable Korea hurts China's economy. They know that if the North does anything wild, they can kiss a major engine for economic growth good-bye.

The CCP's worst case scenario: the North violently imploding, taking out much of the South, and thousands of refugees streaming over the border.

Their best case scenario: Unified Korea, under an anti-American gov't. The way things are going in the South, that'll probably happen once Kim dies, or sooner. With a unified Korea the need for American troops there goes away. China would like to see that.

Personally, I think much of what happens in East Asia revolves around two factors:

1. What happens politcally in Taiwan. Will they roll over and accept unification, or eventually declare independance?

2. Japan increasing its stance as a military power.

China is actually in a bad position in both regards. Much of their strategy in the future will be re-active, rather than pro-active, in my opinion.

18 posted on 01/09/2003 10:04:54 PM PST by Kaiwen
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To: maui_hawaii
>.America historically participated very little in China's past problems (opium wars etc).

The US was involved in the biggest civil war in the Chinese history, the KMT-CCP war.
28 posted on 01/10/2003 7:51:58 AM PST by Lake
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To: Dog Gone
bump this thread
45 posted on 01/12/2003 1:35:23 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: maui_hawaii
The Iraq/N Korea crises is another China plot against the USA. Let’s look at the chain of events in these few years. Either by design or just coincidence, the 9/11 attack on America is a master plan conceived by China. Actually, the war plan was first published on a book titled “Unrestricted War” (a.k.a. Asymmetric Warfare) written by two Chinese Colonels (Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui) of the People’s Liberation Army. Published three years before the bombing of the World Trade Center, the military manual clearly outlined such attack on WTC and frequently mentioned Osama bin Laden. Who has heard of bin Laden three years before 9/11? And, in China? China is known for keeping anything remotely military under secret. Why do they publish this book and put it on public sale all over China? Could it be just an alibi so that China can innocently claim: “We published this book just for fun but Osama bought it on the newsstand. Too bad.” Do you believe the link between 9/11 and China is pure coincidence? (A CIA translated English edition is available from newsmaxstore.com or amazon.com)

China’s plan was to weaken America both militarily, economically and, most of all, to diminish America’s political muscle as a superpower. When America attacked Afghanistan, China’s blueprint was to help the Taliban and al Qaeda to prolong the war to further drain America’s strength and to bog America down in an endless military conflict in the Middle East so that China can have a free hand in Asia. Fortunately, the Afghan war didn’t work out that way. But, only this time...

All these hostilities are not only directed towards America and her people. To put it more exactly, they are targeted at President Bush. Still reminiscing the good old days when they have a Democratic President in the White House which doubles as a Chinese mole. Convinced that they cannot bribe Bush like they did with the ex-Traitor-in-Chief Clinton, China’s top priority is to remove President Bush and/or to guarantee that he doesn’t get reelected in the second term. Even another Republican president is not acceptable. They can’t wait to have another Clinton in the White House again. Is Hilary another China’s dream come true? It’s better than having a ChiCom in the White House.

China’s clandestine conspiracy of inflicting the greatest damage to America without firing a single shot works so brilliantly so far. Most splendidly, America cannot do anything about it, not even pointing an accusing finger. Who can back-stab Bush and can still be a guest at Camp David? You’ve got to admire Jiang Zemin’s crafty old mind for this. Due to different upbringing, American politicians are inherently no match for ChiComs in terms of sinister and treacherous craft. How do they survive the power struggle in the CCP and come out as a winner in the Politburo? Which political party on this planet can kill 30 million of her own people and can still remain in power?

China’s insidious strategy against America is truly multidimensional. It mobilizes all economic, military, political and diplomatic ordnance in one concerted campaign. Just when the American economy is gingerly showing some sign of rebound, the blockage of America’s planned attack on Iraq is another diplomatic coup orchestrated by China. This time, aiming to disarm America instead of Iraq. Unbelievable? Here’s how and why.

By aligning the consensus of nations which has common interests in the Middle East and those who are beneficiaries of a significantly crippled America, China concocts a scheme that leaves America cornered in the international arena and powerless to actively defend herself against all future terrorist attacks. But, as we all know, no passive surveillance can effectively protect a country such as America against any terrorist attacks unless you turn it into a police state, which is equally detrimental to her economy as another terrorist attack. Even America is willing to pay the price, it would make President Bush very unpopular in the home front. Bingo, no second term for Bush. Hi! Hilary. It’s China turn saying: “Let’s make love, not war.”

Why the Sino-Russian-Franco-German alliance? It is just a marriage of convenience. After the first Gulf War twelve years ago, American companies are banned from trading with Iraq. Countries like China, France, Germany and Russia quickly jumped in to fill in the vacuum. These lucrative businesses are in clear violation of UN’s embargo but the international community just turn a blind eye to it. Chinese technicians are crawling all over Iraq. They are certainly not there for any humanitarian programs. They are building fiber-optic communication systems for Iraqi military installations. Due to the illegal nature of these businesses, the profit margin is obscenely high. These petrochem trades are not only limited to refining, distributing and selling Iraqi oil in the black market. French, German (and probably Russian) petrochem front companies operating in Iraq don’t even have to pay for the Iraqi crude in hard currency. As chemical companies, how difficult would it be for them to source those WMD (bio-chem-nuke) producing equipments on Saddam Hussein’s shopping list? German media have reported that German supliers are involved in the mobile labs and weaponized smallpox but Schroder covered this up due to the coming election. The anti-American platform he is employing would be seen as a bad publicity. See? Two-way profit. Iraq is a gold mine to them. By protecting Saddam Hussein, they are only protecting their important source of income which would be all down the drain if the Gulf War II becomes a reality. Moreover, the aftermath of a U.S. controlled Iraq is something they don’t want to see.

This brings us to N Korea. Reports have shown that Kim-Jong-Il had already obtained the necessary material from China’s PLA long before they restart their nuclear plant. This is supposed to be a well kept secret between the two brothers. Surprisingly, as if triggered by a remote control switch, Kim suddenly admitted the existence of their nuclear program, threw out the IAEA inspectors, revoked all treaties, followed by daily rhetorics and war chants against America. Why such high profile and provocative stance? Why now? Kim’s unexpected brinkmanship is just a show conducted by his overseer -- China. It is timed exactly as a window of opportunity to divert America’s military attention from Iraq so that America has to fight the looming Iraqi war with one hand tied. They have never underestimated America’s military strength to fight in two fronts. But one front against biological and another against nuclear threat might just be another story.

In the diplomatic arena, China (aligned with France, Germany and Russia) had concocted another scheme to further weaken America (and UK) in the current geopolitical position. By blocking the attack on Iraq, they want to establish an unwritten principle that the possession and manufacture of WMD alone is not a crime. Their argument is almost water tight, America has these weapons too, and so has Pakistan and India. Therefore, owning WMD alone is not a crime by recognized international law.

If the war on Iraq is successfully blocked, the UN, NATO and European Union are essentially sanctioning the ownership of WMD by rogue nations and leaving them untouchable. On the other hand, they are saying a terrorist can only be incriminated by their acts. One nation’s “terrorist” is another’s “freedom fighter”. No nation can attack them preemptively basing on circumstantial evidence. That means, unless they are apprehended in their act, terrorists are just as innocent as any religious group.

Let us combine the above two principles together. What is the implication? Is a mushroom cloud over New York or Washington enough evidence? Everyone knows that it is an atomic device smuggled into America but who did it? Just intention and motives are no solid evidence recognized by the international community. Up to this minute, Osama bin Laden hasn’t expressly admitted that 9/11 is his deed. If and when this happens, will someone like Joschka Fischer say “Excuse me. I am not convinced!” again?

Ridiculous as it may sound, if this philosophy is widely accepted as the international consensus, who in the world is more likely subjected to terrorist attacks than America? Is that what China and those who has everything to gain but very little to lose want to see? The bottom line is: As long as the WMD owner/manufacturer, nationless terrorist who delivers and detonates them in America, and the nations who harbor them are three separate entities, they are untouchable. No body can do anything about them. Not even America, the superpower (or ex-superpower), now the victim. In 9/11, you have seen an Arabic jihadist carrying out a Chinese plan from Afghanistan. Care to guess what the combination is for the next attack?

This plan is refined to perfection that even after the attack, with the jihadists martyred, America cannot accuse anyone. The most horrific is: the perpetrator is still sitting in the UN Security Council, smirking about America’s inability to retaliate and get at the mastermind behind these attacks. And, continue to humiliate America through political and diplomatic channels by accusing her of bullying, aggression and war mongering.

My deduction of the recent development is: the UN, NATO and EU are adapting dangerous policies that are affecting the very existence of America (plus a few of her true allies). And, America has very little room to maneuver but a great deal to lose. This diplomatic gambit is equivalent to an undeclared war in the diplomatic circle. If these policies become the new order of the world, frankly, I am not optimistic. I cannot foresee how America can get out of this quagmire because she is clearly outnumbered. Among other things, America is a superpower because of her military superiority. Once this advantage is nullified by this international scheme, not only America will become vulnerable. The world will be thrown into chaos. If the new order of the world is no order at all, what will it become without a police?

The treacherous scheme also makes attacking America a highly profitable business. All one needs to know is the exact date of the next attack on America. Then they can sell war sensitive stocks short on the stock market and/or sell selective commodities short on the future market. When the attack happens and the market crash, they are guaranteed to reap billions of profits from the market. They don’t even need working capitals since they are on the selling side. Is that one more reason for nations to side with and sympathize with terrorists? One little tip on the date of attack is worth billions of dollars. Is this how terrorists are financed and how they repay their supporters and benefactors? Is this why France and Germany change side? Bottom line: With America’s hands tied and rendered defenseless by the UN, NATO and EU, what counter measure does she have to stop this? They are making attacking America legal, safe, easy and profitable.

ChiCom has emerged as the nouveau riche of the new century and shed their drab Maoist costume for business suits. They have to at least look decent before their peers and cannot afford to be labeled as a rogue nation. Therefore, any vicious plan has to be carried out by hired hands (al Qaeda, Iraq, Iran) or by her client states (North Korea). This strategy of “war of proxy” will be used whenever China wants to hamper America until she is ready to challenge America with one major showdown, probably nuclear in WWIII. Apparently, America has no counter measure against the present and future Chinese instigated conflicts if China continues with this game plan.

China has long consider America as the only major deterrent to her aggression in the Asian region. For obvious reasons, China wants America out of Asian business, once and for all. China wants to have a free hand in Asian matters so that she can become the eventual overlord in the Eastern Hemisphere.

China has long been at odds with Vietnam, Malaysia, Philippines and Indonesia over the oil rich Spratley Islands in the South China Sea; with India over disputes of the border; and, with Japan over the Senkaku Islands in the East China Sea. Moreover, China now reckons that her military might is at least on a par with Taiwan’s defense and, obviously, China has the numerical advantage in the size of force. However, the only hurdle to a military advance across the strait is America’s intervention. Meanwhile, China has a time table to meet. They are eager to complete the reunification, by force or by political arm twisting, before 2008 -- the year of the Olympic in Beijing.

The current geopolitical perspective is much more volatile than the cold war era (How I miss Reagan and Thatcher, even Gorbachev). The once solid foundation of the world order is now eroded to the core. The borderline between wrong and right, unjust and righteousness are obscured. International organization such as the UN, NATO and EU are letting rogue nations to rewrite the definition of moral and principle. The diplomatic circle is infested with pests each with their own agenda to witness the demise of America. When the last moral foundation of human kind disintegrates, everything could happen.

After 9/11, the demarcation between what is “war” and “non-war” does not exist anymore. If America is committed to defend herself and her position as the world’s greatest democratic nation, she has to take her future in her own hands. America is now fighting to preserve her existence and needs no one’s approval for that. After all, no nation should be denied of her power to defend her survival. It is time for America to take her gloves off and do what has to be done, no matter how you dislike it. There are times when you have to stare eye to eye against evil. Just don’t blink.

I am old enough to come to observe that there are less than 10% bad guys in the world. The worst thing is: out of the 90% good guys, 70% of them are stupid. 27:73, that’s why good guys are always outnumbered. I don’t blame God for making bad guys. His intention is to give mankind free choice. But I do question God for making stupid people to rally around bad guys and protect them. Pray for America, President Bush and the troops.
50 posted on 02/25/2003 1:19:42 PM PST by FreepForever (China is the hub of all evil)
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