Emotion key in [Baseball] Hall votes

San Francisco Comical ^ | 12/16/02 | Bruce Jenkins

[foreverfree]

DARRYL KILE'S name appeared on the Hall of Fame ballot this year. His death had a profound impact on the baseball landscape in the summer, and though his credentials have no place in Cooperstown, the acknowledgment marked a touching departure from the all-business task of enshrinement.

[foreverfree]

If this column has been posted already, let me know.

foreverfree

[t4texas]

You had me going there for a minute until you got in Charlie Hustle's corner.

SHAME! SHAME!

There is a legitimate question as to whether Rose bet against (AGAINST!) the Reds when he was the manager. In fact, several bookies have gone as far as saying they knew when this was the case based on the Reds' pitcher on a given day. If this is true, Pete Rose should never ever appear on the ballot. Bud Selig has to put that question to rest once for all before Rose can be considered.

And if he ever does make it then Shoeless Joe should as well.

[TruBluKentuckian]

I totally disagree with his comments on Ryne Sandberg. He is, in my opinion, the greatest 2nd baseman to ever play the game. He has the numbers, he always acted like an adult and brought Wrigley Field to it's feet almost on a daily basis. I think he should get in on the first ballot, though I bet he doesn't.

Me thinks he's just a White Sox fan.

[t4texas]

Greatest 2nd baseman ever?!?!?! Are you kidding??? He might not even be the best current 2nd baseman if he was still playing! EVER????

[foreverfree]

You had me going there for a minute until you got in Charlie Hustle's corner. SHAME! SHAME!

Shouldn't that be directed at Mr. Jenkins? It's his column. I just pasted it.

As for me, I can't seem to make up my mind about Rose.

foreverfree

[t4texas]

Maybe you should have included a disclaimer, &c.

[Charles Henrickson]

Ryne Sandberg was not the greatest second baseman ever. But he was surely in the top five or six. The greatest would be Rogers Hornsby, followed closely by Eddie Collins and Nap Lajoie. Then Joe Morgan fourth. Charlie Gehringer and Ryne Sandberg--or Sandberg, then Gehringer--would be fifth and sixth. Ryno did it all--bat, glove, power, speed.

[TruBluKentuckian]

A few facts...

Defense:

Highest fielding average for a second baseman in baseball history. (.989)

Most consecutive errorless games by a second baseman for a career (123) and one season (90)

Most assists in one 9 inning game (12)

Only player to ever have six seasons (1983, 1984, 1985, 1988, 1991 & 1992) with at least five-hundred assists at second base

Holds the record for 20 career errorless streaks of at least 30 games

Holds the record of most errorless chances accepted in-a-row (582)

Played in 2164 games over 15 years and made only 120 errors

9 time Gold Glove winner.

Offense:

Sandberg hit more homeruns than any other second baseman in baseball history (277)

Won seven 'Silver Slugger Awards', which is given to the second basemen with the highest slugging percentage

Ryne Sandberg career totals: batting average .285, games 2164, at bats 8385, had 2386 hits, 403 doubles, 76 triples, 282 HR's, 1061 RBI's, 344 stolen bases

The only second baseman you could argue was maybe better is Joe Morgan, and Sandberg was MUCH better defensively than Morgan.

Sandberg was the best ever.

[Charles Henrickson]

This Bay Area writer, Bruce Jenkins--on the basis of his emotions--would vote in Dave Stewart, Fernando Valenzuela, Steve Garvey, Keith Hernandez, and Dave Parker. And yet he would exclude Ryne Sandberg, Lee Smith, and Gary Carter, each of whom was much better at his respective position than the guys Jenkins would vote in.

I agree with Jenkins to a certain extent that "overall impression" and "impact on the game"--a Hall of Fame "feel"--should play a factor in voting. And so, like Jenkins, I would vote in Bruce Sutter and probably Rich Gossage, whereas I would not vote for a Jeff Reardon, let's say, who may have racked up more saves by sheer longevity and the cheapening of the save.

Emotion is one thing. But you've also got to look at what the guy actually accomplished over the course of his career. Stewart Valenzuela, and Parker, for example, did have a few great years. But they also had too many less-than-great years.

[Grampa7030]

Dave Stewart received less then 5% support from voters in 2002 and is therefore not eligible this year. One would think this writer should have known that.

I do not disagree, though, with the premise that emotion does and should play a role, just not the only factor. There are players that you will stop and look at - Mark Mcgwire, Dave Winfield, Harmon Killebrew. I don't need stats to tell me these players belong. But one would verify the stats with the perceptions to complete the process.

I enjoyed the article and that is all that really matters to a sports column. And I agree with him on Joe Kapp.

[t4texas]

My sentiments exactly!!!

Of course, it's too soon to tell but Alfonso Soriano is in the infancy of what may be an extraordinary career. Among current players he is the main competition particularly on offense but again it's early.

Otherwise, Morgan and Sandberg are the best in the last half century. Can't wait for pitchers and catchers to report!

[Charles Henrickson]

Robbie Alomar had a lousy year this year, but before that, he was on a HoF trajectory. If he recovers and has three or four more high caliber years, he would have to rank in the top ten all-time second basemen--maybe top seven or eight.

[t4texas]

Alomar's talent is without dispute. As a person, however, he is a bum. Also it remains to be seen whether his abilities have fallen off a la team mate Mo Vaughn. I give Sandberg a big edge here.

[Charles Henrickson]

Still on second basemen:

Jeff Kent's slugging numbers will end up being very high, but he plays in a slugging-dominant era. Also, his defense is not that great. Still, he may end up in the top ten.

Bill Mazeroski was as good as it gets defensively. And he had the greatest single moment in the history of baseball with his 1960 Series-winning homer. But overall, his stick was a little weak, and it looks even worse than it was, because he played in a pitching-dominant era.

Not Hall of Famers, but . . . Best arm I ever saw on a second baseman: Manny Trillo. Quickest at turning the double-play: Fernando Vina (or maybe Maz). My personal favorite second baseman, one of my heroes when I was a kid growing up on the north side of Chicago: Glenn Beckert.

[okie01]

"Greatest 2nd baseman ever?!?!?! Are you kidding???...EVER????"

Please. Allowances need to be made.

TBK is obviously a Cubs fan. And, thus, a bit, er, well, ah, y'know...

[Tall_Texan]

If I'm not mistaken, Joe Kapp is part Indian (AKA Native American), not Hispanic. And the typical patter about Joe Kapp as a Viking was that he was the least talented QB in the NFL and won on sheer guts (until SB IV, that is).

Kile is guaranteed to get at least one vote - Tracy Ringolsby of the Rocky Mountain News has already written that he voted for Kile - and, yes, it was a vote on emotion.

Sandberg should be a first-ballot HOF'er. Eddie Murray probably will be too. And I would also vote for Sutter and Dawson - even though I'm not a Cub fan.

I'd never vote for Keith Hernandez because of the way he handled the cocaine stories about himself. He's a wuss, not a man.

As for HOF Second Basemen, there's a great comparison at http://www.astrosdaily.com/history/ . Because of Frames, you'll then have to click "Players" and the an article entitled "Craig Biggio and the Hall of Fame". The article compares Biggio's numbers to other HOF'ers and the current crop of 2Bs. It's updated through the 2002 season. Ironically, the Astros signed Jeff Kent, another second baseman on that chart, and plan to move Biggio to the outfield in 2003.

[t4texas]

No discussion encompassing 2nd baseman, HoF, and the Cubs would be complete without mentioning Johnny Evers of Tinkers to Evers to Chance fame and also the brains behind the Merkle Boner.

[Lib-Lickers 2]

Evidently you forgot Glen Hubbard,,,,,,,

[Lib-Lickers 2]

Evidently you forgot Glen Hubbard,,,,,,,

[t4texas]

I expect that we've all forgotten Rod Carew who has over 3,000 hits, seven batting titles, was rookie of the year and stole home 7 times in 1969 (only Ty Cobb's 8 pilfers of the dish in 1912 surpass the feat.)