ACLU opposition, vandals threaten cross in Mojave Desert

Associated Press ^ | 12-24-02 | RICHARD LAKE, Las Vegas Review-Journal

[Oldeconomybuyer]

MOJAVE NATIONAL PRESERVE, Calif. (AP) -- Henry Sandoz, a retired miner with a thick white mustache and scuffed cowboy boots, climbed a rock as big as a two-story house in the desert near the California-Nevada border.

He pointed to rusty scuff marks on a steel cross set in concrete and bolted atop the rock.

[Oldeconomybuyer]

Ruling may mean end of Mojave cross "Separation of Church & State again"
			Posted by gitmo On 07/26/2002 8:36 PM CDT with 21 comments THE PRESS-ENTERPRISE ^ | 07/25/2002 | JOHN WELSH

[Oldeconomybuyer]

Ping

[MeneMeneTekelUpharsin]

Bump for those with the guts to do what's right.

[BenLurkin]

It's no coincidence: The enemies of Christ are also the enemies of the America.

[Free the USA]

fyi

[BallandPowder]

Powder..Patch..Ball FIRE!

So who is this Frank Buono and how can we let him know that his interference is not appreciated?

[Hacksaw]

It is amazing how vindictive the ACLU is against Christianity. But when one reads the history of the ACLU (never reported) that it was founded by a devout socialist, Roger Baldwin, who was besmitten by Communism and once remarked, "socialism is our goal", it doesn't seem that unique.

[winodog]

I would like to shoot these commie basterds.
They have nothing better to do with their time then to wage war against a small cross in the middle of the desert.
Every problem fedgov.org tries to solve, they create two more.

[goldstategop]

Saith the ACLU theophobes: the Cross strikes down any one who dares light eyes upon it and must come down pronto.

[BallandPowder]

Powder..patch..Ball FIRE!

Seems like this guy likes to run things. He nominated himself to be on a enviromental RULEMAKING committee...

Negotiated Rulemaking Advisory Committee; Fixed Anchors in Wilderness: Notice of intent to establish

Mr Wonderful Himself

And some of his friends.

“There are many former (retired) Wilderness administrators who could provide this important perspective, but who are not constrained by agency policies or politics. We would recommend Mr. Frank Buono…..Mr. Tom Kovalicky,….Mr. Ed Bloedel…. These experts would provide a valuable perspective on the challenges of implementing proposals the advisory committee might consider.” – George Nickas, Wilderness Watch

And another about him Smack the Indians

And he writes an article here Bill Threatens Joshua Tree Wilderness

[FITZ]

It's funny how the same people who believe there should be a porn shop on every corner and those who don't like the signs and ads should just not look can't find the same argument when it comes to crosses.

[DaGman]

The solution to this is the land swap. As long as the cross is not on government land there's no problem. The government has no business endorsing any religion as it does with this cross.

Flame away!

[gaspar]

Buono, who was quoted, "[I find Bush's] attempts to promote Christianity both offensive and unconstitutional", is a Board Member of the neo-Marxist Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility, or PEER. I imagine he could be reached through www.peer.org.

[melsec]

The solution to this is the land swap. As long as the cross is not on government land there's no problem. The government has no business endorsing any religion as it does with this cross.

Ok

This cross was put by war veterans as a memorial to their fallen comrades. Unofficial as that may be where to *ssholes like yourself get off. If you have no respect for the cross at least you could have some respect for the original intention of it. Rather you would let your hatred blind you to all that is good and noble in this story. You people make me sick to my stomach.

How's that for a start?

Mel

[DaGman]

"How's that for a start?"

Very good. Now, the reason the cross went up and who did it doesn't matter. It is on federal land and the government has no business endorsing religion period. I have no problem with the cross on private land. And, I think the story is a beautiful one. I'll bet the sight of the cross on the rock at dawn is a beautiful, inspiring one. I think the cross should be maintained, as long as its on private land.

Isn't it interesting how some people react when someone doesn't agree with them on matters of religion? Why do you feel the need for the government to enforce your beliefs?

[norton]

The cross was there before the land was declared a preserve. It was there because someone put it there as both a rememberance and, eventually, a religious gathering place.
OK so far...
By removing it today, on the grounds stated, a precedent is estabilshed to remove every standing church, cross, or offending name from any piece of federal land in america.
Would the ACLU and the liberal courts next move on every ghost town and back woods village that lies on a lease hold or has been gathered up in a subsequent federal land grab?

PS: Note that military chapels are on federal land - are they now covert buildings offering equal time to Santaria or animism?

[Prodigal Son]

This is a photo of the grave of one Robert F Kennedy. He is buried in Arlington National Cemetery- Federal Property.

Is the ACLU going to sue to have Kennedy's cross removed?

In case the image doesn't show up, here's the link- http://www.mdw.army.mil/fs-m02.htm

[melsec]

Now, the reason the cross went up and who did it doesn't matter. It is on federal land and the government has no business endorsing religion period. I have no problem with the cross on private land.

Why doesn't it matter? I think it only doesn't matter to you. As you will se the land was not originally under the protection of the National Park authority. Was it part of the man's original mining claim and then annexed by the Government? Ask yourself have you seen war memorials before with crosses at them and do you wan tthem all pulled down? How about soldiers field? Do you wish to undo all that was in the past and all America once beleived in and stood for? Do you want to revise history by removing any trace of a great part of that history just because ti happens to be on Government land?

Personally I don't want the Government anywhere near my religion. However I don't beleive that having a cross on government land violates the seperation of church and state. Crosses have been long used as a place of memorial for fallen soldiers and so in that context it is was cuturally acceptable when they were erected and so at a minimum they are an historical relic (sadly)

Mel

[Prodigal Son]

Are you seriously saying the gov't shouldn't allow R. Kennedy's grave to have a cross? Come on... If I were to go and vandalize his grave to remove this "offensive geometric design" because it was a government endorsement of Christianity- the liberals would have me killed by lethal injection and that's a fact.