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To: Dixie republican
"How can one nullify a process that they voluntarily agreed to ascede."

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Does that or does that not support nullification in your view? In my view, that does not support the idea that people of a state enter a UNION with the intent to suffer forever as if in a miserable marriage that cannot be dissolved. If that were the case, no matter how unhappy we were with Great Britian, we would be required to suffer in silence and never have moved for separation from the mother country.

Also, in this country, we cherish the right to free association. That also implies the right not to associate. Is it consistent that individuals have the right to free association, but that those same people are subject to compelled association at the state level with a Union that may have changed into an entity that damages the rights of the citizens?

This thing: UNION---has become as an idol, in the biblical sense, a god above and before God, worshipped by the statists, who are willing to spill the blood of free citizens to maintain it. Hence the attitude of some that once the Union is formed, that is it.

If the Union were to dissolve or lose some of its constituent components, that would mean nothing else than the resumption to the states or to the people powers that they chose not to any longer delegate to a body they created. The statists (aka the ruling elite) don't want to lose the power, the tax revenue, the control, and become extremely ugly when their position is threatened. The statists forgot that the people gave them a job to do. Now the statists, absolutely corrupted and filled with arrogance, believe that they have a divine right to their position, that they will wage war to defend.

The ability of a state to leave the Union is an important check against the tendency of the Union to usurp excessive powers, disregard the principles of federalism, and abuse the people. If a state wants to leave, the Union should ask itself why. If a state cannot leave, the Union has no reason to act in a just manner toward the states.

Communist USSR had to disintegrate in order to release European states that had been absorbed by force at the end of WWII. Otherwise, those states would still, by force, and against their will, be part of the USSR. Are you suggesting that we should follow the communist example and keep the states that desire secession in the Union by force? That might be legitimate for the communist tyrrany, but it is not legitimate for a republic of free people, who are trying to maintain this ongoing concern of self-government.

14 posted on 12/10/2002 8:08:11 AM PST by Jason_b
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To: Jason_b
bump
16 posted on 12/10/2002 8:58:00 AM PST by SauronOfMordor
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To: Jason_b
Does that or does that not support nullification in your view?

It supports the Natural Law Right to Revolution. Not one of the men who pledged their "Lives, Fortunes and Sacred Honor" by signing the Declaration considered their actions to be nullification of British law. They, in-fact, embraced British law and rebelled against the Crown only after repeated appeals to the King to place them under the full protection of British law were rejected.

54 posted on 12/11/2002 4:52:11 AM PST by Ditto
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To: Jason_b
This is obviously a sore point with you. And no, the line from the Declaration does not support justification for nullification. I don't want to debate the causes of the Civil War with you, but let me say this: States Rights is part of the process (called procedural law) to guarantee liberty for all (law of substance). If the States Rights issue is used to bar liberty for any (slavery), then the guarantor (U.S.) of the substance law must begin to look at the procedures, and correct the process where broken.

Furthermore, since the U.S. is the guarantor of my freedom, and if a state can secede from it-threatening my freedom-then secession is illegal.

Look, I am a born and bred Alabaman, and I've heard it all on nullification and states rights. And I don't buy it. If the South had won, after voluntarily participating in the Election of 1860, I probably wouldn't be here today. None of us would. Those of us Down South would probably be part of the Commonwealth.

As far as your Reveloutionary argument, King George & Parliament left us, we didn't leave them. And won our freedom on the Battlefield, that ultimate issue solver (see Civil War).

58 posted on 12/11/2002 7:23:36 AM PST by Dixie republican
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