Thinking About Jonathan Pollard

Artuz Sheva ^ | 08 December 2002 | Larry Domnitch

[xJones]

No, Jackson, Pollard sold American secrets to a foreign country. His ethinic background, nor the country he sold the information to should matter. The fact is that he is an AMERICAN, took the payment and the risks and got caught. His punishment may be harsher than others, but Hansen, Ames and the Walkers aren't getting out anytime soon. We either are Americans or we aren't, there are rules for Americans or forget about it and we can all go our ways for whatever reasons.

[bribriagain]

"How convenient for you Israel-sycophants."

Wow, that's a first.

I normally like your posts, but something really has you upset. What gives?

[Illbay]

It's simple. This is FREE REPUBLIC, not FREE STATE OF ISRAEL, or any other country.

If people want to support Israel in principle, fine.

But if you want to come on here and gripe that we aren't "fair" to condemn to perpetual imprisonment a man who did as much damage to our nation's security as Jonathan Pollard; and further, if you want to smear anyone who dares to suggest that such condemnation is solely due to "anti-Semitism," yeah, I've got a big problem with it.

You wouldn't DARE have anyone come here and say that Hanson ought to be treated more leniently, because he's "Scandinavian," or whatever. It's just NAUSEATING to me.

[SauronOfMordor]

The game is like this- we have to play hardball with pollard or every spy in the world will think we are easy targets.
Isrealis have to try their hardest to get them out, or no one will be willing to risk spying.

Like I've said before: in international politics, there are no "friends" or "allies" -- just governments which may have one or more objectives which coincide with ours (and others which are opposed to our interests). In the real world today, information is valuable -- it can be sold or traded for things of value. From the data I've seen, I'm pretty sure Israel got Pollard to get certain items of information for the express purpose of being able to trade it to the enemies of the US, in exchange for things of value to Israel.

Nobody on this board can truthfully say I'm on the side of Israel's enemies. I would celebrate if Arafat were killed tomorrow. But I'm not on Israel's side either. I'm an American, and I'm exclusively on the side of the US.

[bribriagain]

"You wouldn't DARE have anyone come here and say that Hanson ought to be treated more leniently, because he's "Scandinavian," or whatever. It's just NAUSEATING to me."

Illbay, I think they should fry Pollard. In fact, I believe this issue should not be brought up again.

I also think the pro-Israeli crowd will get a kick out of your calling me a pro-Israeli shill. I have been strongly critical of posters that place Israeli interests above those of the US. BTW: I have never advocated the release of classified material

[Man of the Right]

Pollard was a traitor. A lifetime sentence is fair, though I would not have objected to execution if one defines the Cold War as war-time. If we didn't want to do the time, he shouldn't have done the crime.

[Man of the Right]

Pollard was a traitor. A lifetime sentence is fair, though I would not have objected to execution if one defines the Cold War as war-time. If he didn't want to do the time, he shouldn't have done the crime.

[xJones]

It's just NAUSEATING to me.

Well the last thing I'd want to see is a nauseated Illbay. It's bad enough when you're not throwing up on the screen.

But I'll agree with you (gack!), the continued attempts to make a special case out of Pollard are back-firing. For crying out loud, Pollard is an American who sold info to another country. What if one day there is an Hispanic American who decides to sells secrets to Mexico (which would really be funny) and an outcry is made by Mexicans to save his tail? IOW, you either have rules or you don't. Treason is treason no matter who did it. I love Israel, but I don't appreciate this Pollard nonsense.

[SJackson]

No, Jackson, Pollard sold American secrets to a foreign country. His ethinic background, nor the country he sold the information to should matter. The fact is that he is an AMERICAN, took the payment and the risks and got caught. His punishment may be harsher than others, but Hansen, Ames and the Walkers aren't getting out anytime soon. We either are Americans or we aren't, there are rules for Americans or forget about it and we can all go our ways for whatever reasons.

We seem to agree on all of that, not sure why you started the post with No.

[SJackson]

Pollard was a traitor. A lifetime sentence is fair, though I would not have objected to execution if one defines the Cold War as war-time. If we didn't want to do the time, he shouldn't have done the crime.

That seems reasonable.

[bvw]

People throw the word "traitor" around like chump change. In common use, it means what they say but then they say a traitor should be executed. Why, by the the US Constitution, there is one crime for which the Feds may excute a man, and that is indeed Treason.

US Constitution, Article III, Section 3

Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.

Israel is not a enemy. There was no treason. Period.

[Illbay]

I wasn't referring to you, but to others such as dennisw, who has excused every act of Israel, no matter how antithetical to U.S. interests.

I have no bone to pick with Israel as to what they do in their own backyard. That's their business. If they want to wipe out all the Palestinians, that's their business (and they'll have to deal with the aftermath).

But when people come here, on FREE REPUBLIC, and try to tell me that we ought to let a traitor go free or if we don't, it's because we "hate Jews," that's just about enough.

[Illbay]

What if one day there is an Hispanic American who decides to sells secrets to Mexico (which would really be funny) and an outcry is made by Mexicans to save his tail?

Actually, I can see this happening. In fact, looked at another way, it happens quite frequently.

In Texas, for example, we have had on more than one occasion, a Mexican national commit murder, and then we have to hear for years, before he is put to death, the whining and crying about "racism" etc.

Just wait till Resendez-Ramirez is about to be strapped to the gurney. That's all you're going to hear.

Tough.

[Illbay]

Israel is not a enemy. There was no treason. Period.

1. The Soviet Union was most CERTAINLY an enemy. 2. That is where the information ended up. 3. It was sold to the Soviets by the Israelis. 4. Israel may not be an enemy, but she is NO FRIEND to the United States.

About the only thing we can expect to get from Israel is absentee ballots voting for hard-socialist Democrats from "dual citizenship" jerk-offs who shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place.

[Non-Sequitur]

Israel is not a enemy. There was no treason. Period.

That's why Pollard was tried, convicted and sentenced for espionage.

[bvw]

And the penalty for spying for an ally -- a strong ally -- during times of peace is? In every other case -- much less.

[bvw]

Did you know that officially the Soviet Union is our ally? I mean we fought the Axis together.

Despite all the efforts of the historical revisionists to make it so the Cold War was not a war.

[Non-Sequitur]

And the penalty for spying for an ally -- a strong ally -- during times of peace is? In every other case -- much less.

Espionage is espionage, regardless. If others have received lesser sentences then that doesn't make their punishement right or Pollard's punishment wrong. Pollard can stay where he is.

[Man of the Right]

Pollack has been found guilty of espionage for a foreign power, in this case Israel. When Pollard joined the government he pledged "to bear true faith and allegiance" to the Constitution. Clearly, he did not. We have a federal law that requires all foreign agents to register. He did not.

Lord Palmerston had it exactly right: A nation has no permanent allies, only permanent interests. Israel and the U.S. have usually acted in concert, but Israel is not a formal treaty ally, and at times our national interests have diverged. In 1967 the Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Dayan personally ordered a combined air-sea attack on the U.S. spy ship Liberty that killed 34 Americans and wounded 171 -- the largest combat loss the Navy has sustained in any WAR since World War II. Israeli apologists claim the attack was accidental, but the premedited nature of the attack has been documented beyond dispute. The NSA monitored Israeli surveillance and recorded Dayan's order. The ship was listed in Jane's which is on board virtually every warship in the world. The ship was flying an enormous American flag. Israeli boats approached within 50' of the Liberty and A-4s buzzed the mast just prior to the attack. In 1969 Israeli SAM missile radar locked on a U.S. Air Force reconnaisance aircraft that was overflying Israeli positions in the Golan. During the first Bush Adminstration, the Israeli Prime Minister Shamir betrayed some of America's most sensitive state secret -- our global nuclear targeting plan -- to the Soviets. Again, this is very well documented.

So while I like and respect the Israelis, my loyalty is to the U.S.

[bvw]

General Washington had loyalist spies in his camp before the crossing of the Delaware and the 'surprise' attack on Trenton. This during war. He didn't go nuts about it -- he knew that secrecy is best composed of of two elements -- the most primary speed (aka alacrity, dispatch) -- that is a no secret ages well. The second is trust. But not the trust born of a bureaucrat's or ordinary member's oath, no matter how threatened with death and tearing out of one's guts. A trust that comes from both a serious oath and a close, direct association in hazardous or other deep-trust forming activities. In other words not that veneer-level trust that is all one can ever hope for at best and which one is rotten to play for in mass enterprises such as our modern Federal Intelligence bureaus.

In the Cold War, early middle and late, we ouselves relied on a simple rotten meaness to keep secrets, a method that just doesn't cut the mustard, secret keeping wise. It works short term and on many, many men -- few have that internal spark, flake or hard ore that allows them to break the bonds of threat and general cussedness. But a few do. And always will -- no death penalty, no drawing and quartering will stop them. That's the facts. History. Experience.

Doesn't really matter why they do it. What does matter is you can not stop it from happening.

The number of men a person can deeply trust to keep dread secrets, is a handful, at most a few more than a score. At most. General Washington knew that. He would never have relied on secret keeping of vital state secrets like we do now -- or have done for the past sixty years. It is both dishonorable and ineffective.

Look -- China has our best nuke designs and Pollard did NOT give them. China is still Red China -- unlike the Soviet Union, which fell apart -- even they supposedly had all that dread info via Spy Pollard and PM Shimar. Did Pollard do us a favor?

Yes, later in the Revolutionary War Washington hung a spy rather than trade him. Trades -- at least for Officers -- were common. But Washington knew the difference between war an peace. Even though fragile, and full of little conflicts a peace is still a peace. You trade. Officers, enlisted and spies.

Washington, himself, on a spy mission -- had been captured. Back just before the full outbreak of the French-and-Indian Wars. Some of his captors -- like many freepers would have evidently -- wanted to kill him. Cooler heads prevailed. Washington was given his parole -- he was set free.

We are at peace. Israel is our ally. Pollard should be deported to Israel.