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On Debate and Existence: Excerpts from Voegelin
The Collected Works of Eric Voegelin, Vol. 12 ^ | 1990 | Erice Voegelin

Posted on 12/08/2002 12:25:26 PM PST by betty boop

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To: betty boop
There is always the danger of a sort of solipsism in regarding only those things which we can perceive, or are compatible, or allowable to our structures.

The example I always use is the infrared patterns on flowers that look like runways to the pollen for bees, but which we cannot see.
41 posted on 12/08/2002 4:03:11 PM PST by lds23
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To: widowithfoursons
Yes, because Voegelin dismissed Cicero, and considered him a nonentity.

Good grief! but I have just given you a citation from Voegelin's own published work that would suggest to any reasonable person that Voegelin held Cicero's insight in the highest esteem.

Assuredly, on strength of the citation, Voegelin did not regard Cicero as a "nonentity."

So what's your beef?

42 posted on 12/08/2002 4:05:55 PM PST by betty boop
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To: lds23
There is always the danger of a sort of solipsism in regarding only those things which we can perceive, or are compatible, or allowable to our structures.

I hear you (I think), lds23. But then these solipsistic "filters" can filter out Reality only so long.... At the end of the day, the tail does not wag the dog.

43 posted on 12/08/2002 4:09:40 PM PST by betty boop
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To: Alamo-Girl
But where is the origin and end of existence to be found? As a preliminary to the answer we must interpret the phenomenon of questioning itself; and for this purpose we must add to illumination and transcendence two further properties of the Intellect,…ideation and reasoning. Through illumination and transcendence existence has come into view as an existent thing in a field of existent things.

Sorry, I see no suggestion there, only more 'intellectual' sounding pretence.
44 posted on 12/08/2002 4:12:13 PM PST by tpaine
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To: betty boop
But then these solipsistic "filters" can filter out Reality only so long....

As Magritte's Treachery of Images points out ("This is not a pipe"), we can be severely limited in our understanding of reality, mostly by our assumption set, but even among the best of us by the very limits of experiential "physics", if you will.

Reality, even when spelled with a capital "R", is merely an attempt to nail jello to the wall.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy"

45 posted on 12/08/2002 4:28:24 PM PST by lds23
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To: general_re
Voegelin's correspondence with Leo Strauss

You have a copy?

46 posted on 12/08/2002 4:28:26 PM PST by cornelis
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To: Alamo-Girl
the universe of modern physics and astronomy

Is that a metaphor?

47 posted on 12/08/2002 4:38:11 PM PST by cornelis
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To: betty boop
I'm sorry, but I found this passage be almost entirely devoid of content. He takes great relish in referring to famous people whom he has (apparently) read. And if I understand him right, he is saying that people who disagree with him are mentally deranged and not just wrong. This seems to be quite arrogant. The Soviets did just this; the enemies of communism were defined to be crazy and therefore put in insane asylums. And "noetic structure of existence" is nonsense.
48 posted on 12/08/2002 4:43:11 PM PST by maro
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To: cornelis
You have a copy?

Somewhere around here, under six thousand other things in the basement - I haven't seen it in a couple of years, so that's where I assume it to be. I may have a revelation otherwise later, though ;)

I did a quick lookup of the exact title - it's "Faith and Political Philosophy: The Correspondence Between Leo Strauss and Eric Voegelin, 1934-1964", Peter Emberley and Barry Cooper, eds. Ted McAllister's book on Voegelin and Strauss is worthwhile, too, but I don't have a copy of that one.

Anyway, it's worth checking out, even if you're not a Straussian - Strauss's critiques of Voegelin are right on target, IMO...

49 posted on 12/08/2002 4:43:31 PM PST by general_re
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To: lds23
Reality, even when spelled with a capital "R", is merely an attempt to nail jello to the wall....

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy"

At a certain level of this problem, I can hear ya, lds23. But what you describe does not seem to me to be an occasion for despair; for the Christian virtue of hope is still alive notwithstanding: It seems to me you haven't quite thought through the ramifications of what Voegelin has propounded in this essay....

You can slice and dice reality any which way you want to. But IMHO the point is (and always will be): God always gets the "last word." And that is the very constitution of hope itself for simple folk like me....

And I think the phrase goes, "my dear Horatio...." Let's not leave out that little obeisance of "routine", customary human courtesy/commerce here....

50 posted on 12/08/2002 4:48:00 PM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop
In laymans' terms, if all that Voegelin is saying that it is impossible to enter into dialogue with people hell bent on overthrowing authority figures; -- then he has no real insight on 'debate or existence'. Thus, his whole mind numbingly convoluted essay is an intellectual sham.

Dear tpaine, for Voegelin -- taking a page from Plato -- the authentic "authority figures" in society are never the same people as the people who wield political power.

Who said they were? Not I. -- The fact remains that his essay is a sham if based on such an obvious truism.

Bona fide "authority figures" are philosophers, not politicians. Plato, for one, said the polis (the "state," or government) is an organic community, a common culture formed in the crucible of "the human condition," extended into the forms of public life, for the welfare of the polity and the individuals who comprise it. A lot has changed since then. The political class these days who so bedevil and impede us in the exercise of basic human freedoms, are the very same who refuse to pay homage to the conditio humana, to the basic human condition as explicated by ancient (and modern) experiential understandings of human existence. The political class hates personal liberty as an affront to its own authority and privilege. This is not a modern development -- it has always been so, throughout history....

Nice lecture. Why do you think it applies to my point above?

The Framers certainly knew this. They tried to protect us, their "progeny," from such an outcome. They used the language of the classical and Christian thinkers to defend us against just such an outcome. But hardly anybody seems to realize that, these days.
Least of all you -- unfortunately, who seemingly has the most to gain from getting this problem "right," given your love for Liberty....

Amazing jump in your 'logic' betty. -- You're lecturing me on the obvious, when suddenly you flat out declare that I don't 'realize' some imaginary point. - Weird. - Just what is this problem you claim I can't get "right"?

The denizens of Second Reality simply hate First Reality; not only do they themselves not want to "live there"; but if given the power to do so, they would prohibit anybody else from "living there."

Meaningless generalizations as these 'realities' you discuss are not established. You & V. believe they exist. - I don't. I see only one reality about us.

There is a simple formula involved here. It's called the Will to Power. And the Will to Power is the creature of Second Reality. It has no source in First Reality -- which is constituted by and in God. (I just know you'll hate me for saying that; but if you don't want to be "bedevilled" by the Devil himself, then please tell me: where do you think you can you go for relief from His Pestilence?)

Now, now betty, why would I 'hate' you for stating your beliefs?

For in First Reality, the only power that really counts, from "the alpha to the omega" is God's. And what powers we humans have derive from God. IMHO. So go figure.

Indeed, -- and as your last few statements mean little or nothing to me, -- I won't even try to 'figure'.
- Thanks

51 posted on 12/08/2002 4:49:26 PM PST by tpaine
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To: betty boop
I found this passage be almost entirely devoid of content

Please, bb. Give us something quotable--like Cicero.

(p.s. V thought C's writings were hieroglyphic!)

52 posted on 12/08/2002 4:52:21 PM PST by cornelis
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To: maro
I'd love to respond to your last; but haven't got the least clue how to do that: You haven't given me any kind of a well-framed argument to argue with, just a sentimmental or perhaps aesthetic rejoinder. So pending such time as get your question clarified rationally, you have my blessings and hopes for Godspeed.
53 posted on 12/08/2002 4:53:50 PM PST by betty boop
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To: tpaine
Meaningless generalizations as these 'realities' you discuss are not established. You & V. believe they exist. - I don't. I see only one reality about us.

Then you will have no cause for complaint, tpaine, when the "Progressive Left" or some other more "advanced" afficianado of Second Reality strips you of your liberties by tampering with the "law." The secret of Second Reality is that its denizens really do believe that they have the power to establish "laws" that are binding on everyone, regardless of whether "everyone" (or anyone) likes it or not. We call this: Compulsion. Coersion, Tyranny.

God's law, in contrast, is never so complicated, convoluted, or "anti-individual." It is the model of simplicity itself, which says the dignity of the human person, being sacred, may not be violated by any man. Man may do whatever his free will gives scope to -- subject to judgment in due course. Not man's judgment; but God's judgment.

And I have a fairly confident feeling at this point in my spiritual development that God tends to judge man precisely in terms of the kinds of judgments that man renders against his neighbor....

Of course, you do not believe in God. And so this entire conversation is not merely superfluous, but utterly devoid of meaning to you.... (If I had to guess....)

54 posted on 12/08/2002 5:09:57 PM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop
Meaningless generalizations as these 'realities' you discuss are not established. You & V. believe they exist. - I don't. I see only one reality about us.

Then you will have no cause for complaint, tpaine, when the "Progressive Left" or some other more "advanced" afficianado of Second Reality strips you of your liberties by tampering with the "law."

My belief in the existence a single reality somehow means I can't object to my enemies violating my rights? Bizarro logic betty.

The secret of Second Reality is that its denizens really do believe that they have the power to establish "laws" that are binding on everyone, regardless of whether "everyone" (or anyone) likes it or not. We call this: Compulsion. Coersion, Tyranny. God's law, in contrast, is never so complicated, convoluted, or "anti-individual." It is the model of simplicity itself, which says the dignity of the human person, being sacred, may not be violated by any man. Man may do whatever his free will gives scope to -- subject to judgment in due course. Not man's judgment; but God's judgment.

You preach to the choir. - I have no objections to your beliefs.

And I have a fairly confident feeling at this point in my spiritual development that God tends to judge man precisely in terms of the kinds of judgments that man renders against his neighbor.... Of course, you do not believe in God. And so this entire conversation is not merely superfluous, but utterly devoid of meaning to you.... (If I had to guess....)

You are guessing betty, - obviously. Just as you are also desperate to find some way to discredit my observation that V. is an intellectual sham.

55 posted on 12/08/2002 5:32:54 PM PST by tpaine
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To: tpaine
You preach to the choir. - I have no objections to your beliefs.

Truly I am glad to hear it, tpaine. But trust me, my friend -- V. is no "intellectual sham." If he were, believe me, I wouldn't have been reading him for the past 18 years, to my great profit I do believe. I have exactly zero time to invest in shams these days. Capice mi amici?

56 posted on 12/08/2002 6:19:58 PM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop
Here's something else by Voegelin I pulled off a website. (There's a website for everything!)

Reality, at its deepest level, is not a `thing' or a `fact,' but an existential tension which is structured, through the
poles of `world' and `Beyond,' as a pull toward the perfect fullness and luminosity of being that is symbolized in
the language of myth by the realm of the divine. The substance of reality, in other words, at least as far as it can be known by man in epistemic experience, is nothing other than the love of God. This is, again, to speak mythically; but to articulate in all of its experiential richness a philosophical penetration into the living depths of existence no other language can be fully effective.

This a a lot of baloney. This is not philosophy; this is sophistry. There's nothing to say about it, because he has said nothing. There are many modes of nihilism; this one is the nihilism of abusing philosophical language to feign the appearance of philosophy, whilst saying nothing. On the left, Foucault; on the right, Voegelin.
57 posted on 12/08/2002 6:22:17 PM PST by maro
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To: maro
This a a lot of baloney. This is not philosophy; this is sophistry. There's nothing to say about it, because he has said nothing. There are many modes of nihilism; this one is the nihilism of abusing philosophical language to feign the appearance of philosophy, whilst saying nothing. On the left, Foucault; on the right, Voegelin.

I can't tell you how sorry I am that you feel that way, maro. I have this eerie feeling that your critique of Voegelin's critique is coming straight out of a Second Reality...where perchance you have chosen to hole yourself up for the duration....

For the record I note you did not engage any point of V's analysis on substance, merit, technical adequacy, evidence, etc. Instead, you went straight for the ad hominum attack.

Where I come from, this usually is considered to be the sign of a weak argument.

58 posted on 12/08/2002 6:30:38 PM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl
does it follow that Aristotelian and Thomist metaphysics must be thrown on the scrap heap of symbolisms that once had their moment of truth but now have become useless?

You will have anticipated that the answer will be negative. To be sure, a large part of the symbolism has become obsolete, but there is a solid core of truth in it that can be, and must be, salvaged by means of some surgery….

The lover of wisdom always has a face, and this is one of respect. If I had a language . . .

59 posted on 12/08/2002 6:45:18 PM PST by cornelis
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To: beckett
see 59, in reference to Horgan's interest in "kicking away the ladder."
60 posted on 12/08/2002 6:52:14 PM PST by cornelis
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